Archers thread #167: Welcome to Ambridge, the world capital of loose ends! Discuss The Archers here.

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Gosh I really wish this horrible storyline would hurry up and fuck off. I don’t listen to the Archers to go in depth on this specific trauma, let alone to hear it all through the prism of a bloke who didn’t do any of the physical things involved. Not saying men cannot be upset by miscarriage, I’ve seen my own partner and friends go through this unfortunately. But the programme seems to be needlessly dragging it out and is just becoming increasingly upsetting. I find it pretty tasteless as they just seem to be using it for a plot point to drive H &F apart or whatever it’ll be. I hate it.

As I said they have no legal status, no medical records accessed (which makes sense as many early miscarriages would not involve any medical records). Consequently they would have no evidential integrity to create any narrative beyond that persons word, which they could say without a certificate.

There is a good reason they have no legal status as in many cases there would be no proof, it would be an administrative nightmare otherwise. It is basically a way for either or both parents either together or individually to formally memorialise their lost baby, but with no proof beyond their word and no right to cite the other parent without their approval.

It would be fairly disappointing if people deliberately lied, but nothing to stop that, and it could be for all sorts of reasons (like perhaps a child they always wanted but never conceived).

they may have no legal status but how many people would know that and just take it for granted that if you have the document it’s factual

I find it pretty tasteless as they just seem to be using it for a plot point to drive H &F apart or whatever it’ll be

I couldn't agree more, just more fodder for sadness/misunderstandings over subsequent relationships.

The Scottish version which is some sort of book of remembrance or similar only accepts entries submitted by, as the government site puts it,

The mother/woman/person who has had the loss prior to the end of the 24th week of pregnancy may apply for an entry to be made in the Memorial Book.

As with the English version no evidence is required at all. The book isn't public and only the person submitting an entry can ask for a certificate.

I'm completely fed up of this storyline. Fallon suffered a contraceptive failure.

Google is your friend. Its lack of legal status is quite clearly stated on the official site and can be found in a few seconds, so very easy to refute.

Of course if the partner agreed to be on the certificate it might give it a little more veracity. But of course could already have been coerced into agreeing to that against their will and if so might suggest the certificate is the least of their worries.

To a greater or lesser extent mental illness has long used by certain men (and sometimes even other woman) as an attack on women to control them or shut them up, without any need for a legally meaningless certificate.

harrison sounds like a northern eeyore.

He does 😂He keeps doing something weird with his voice, trying to sound mournful. I wish Alan would stop enabling him.

like perhaps a child they always wanted but never conceived

This made me think of Joy again. Although she may well have conceived a child, she had a conversation with someone in the last year or two, about being in labour, that just didn’t ring true to me.

I totally agree. It is upsetting. After my experience I wouldnt want a certificate to say I was pregnant and now Im not.
Harrison needs a good kick up the arse and I think Fallon will give him one.
The Grundys try really hard not to get on, undecided if to go and help with a felled tree that would give them money and a bit of a rep for reliability. Then feeling bad about leaving George and (Carnt remember other brothers name), to give out leaflets to help with all thier buisness. It just really annoyed me this last episode. Fed up with Harrison and The Grundys are so stupid or thats how the SW write them. I wish they would give them a break and let them have a bit of luck.

Ed's suggestion that they buy Emma a van shows why they are always broke.

With Rochelle I think.

Yep. And basing their future on ‘more days like today’ when they clearly were paid double because it’s an unusual event

i don’t think there will be an accident - I think they will just mess it all up by ending up in debt and Eddie will have to take the chainsaw off Ed to stop him doing something stupid

Yes. It wasn't a baby loss as such and would most likely have happened anyway and nobody would have known about it. Not at all like the loss of a longed for baby.

Did Jakob say that one of the horses with strangles was called Markie Boy?

The Grundys try really hard not to get on, undecided if to go and help with a felled tree that would give them money and a bit of a rep for reliability

Yes, it was baffling to understand the EdandEm logic in wanting to stay at the fete to hand out leaflets and drum up work, when they were being offered actual work of the kind they were hoping to drum up. Those 2 are such a pair of chumps.

Bartlebys’ nice new lady friend was definitely checking out his welfare.

Maybe he’s just too old to be a working animal?

(Really can’t be bothered to look this up.)

(Strangles? Possibly. But how would he have caught it from the Stables horses?)

(Strangles? Possibly. But how would he have caught it from the Stables horses?)

I don't know. It was mentioned about all the people petting him and this has been going on for a while. Can it be spread that way? They said something about him curling his lip a lot - was that relevant? I don't know a great deal about horses.

If the lip curling, etc, were symptoms of illness surely the Grundys would have recognised them?

Probably but then you would also think Lillian knew more about it than she did.

It's probably not that then but something is going on.

I thought it would be that she offers them loads of money for Bartleby (because she loves him and he reminds her of her childhood pony or something) and George wants to sell and Eddie doesn’t and they have an argument. Again.

I did wonder if the woman recognised Bartleby. It seems Joe acquired him on a long term loan - perhaps the loaner’s family wants him back now he’s ‘famous’?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thearchers/entries/0cad95b1-6109-4534-85a5-6a6f7fcf3bb4

That sounds a good call as he seemed to know her!!

The baby loss certificate (to allow either partner in the loss of a pre 24 week pregnancy to obtain a certificate) is a result of an independent formal review widely consulting with affected / involved parties. It reflects a real need in SOME to officially record the existence of their lost baby and gives them that opportunity if that is what they wish.

Whilst some may see a very early loss as ‘just a few cells’ that often would not be known about and possibly just a relief for anyone who did not want a baby (but often a lot more emotionally complex than that either at the time or later), to think that should apply to everyone seems presumptuous. Many react to the loss of what they see as their baby (containing all its genetic information at fertilisation, its pattern is set, it only needs to develop and grow) with varying degrees of grief. The effect of such a loss is profound to some men as well as woman (possibly compounded in Harrison’s case by being seen as his only potential child)

It is called a baby loss certificate for a reason and meets a need for some (that see the loss of their potential child as far more than expelling a few cells) to recognise the existence in some way of their genetically complete pre child. I feel it is not for us to measure other people’s grief, in what is such a profound situation to many, even to some of those that may choose to end the pregnancy for whatever reason.

Thinking about it, Harrison's behavior has been getting odder over the last few years. The extremely unprofessional blabbing about his work to people who should be being told about it, repeatedly, despite warnings. This stuff with the baby that never was. Even his sudden religiosity that didn't develop gradually as far as we were told - it wasn't there at all, then it was full-on. Is this an unusually good slow-motion story about a mental health collapse?

The top and bottom of it for me is that the storyline just doesn't ring true. Harrison and Fallon were so loved up and Fallon could have died in the car accident, but this seems to be of no consequence to Harrison. I get that this has brought home to him how much he wants to be a father after going along with her insistence that they would never have kids, but he wouldn't even have been aware of the miscarriage if Fallon hadn't been involved in the accident (and if the doctor hadn't blurted it out to both of them!) Instead of talking about this - which I think they would do - Harrison has gone behind Fallon's back to send off for this certificate and is now organising a church service! It's just too OTT. As if things are already not bad enough for Fallon who has had a miscarriage that the world and his wife now know about despite taking what she (and presumably Harrison) quite rightly believed were adequate contraceptive precautions. And none of this helped by Harrison's voice!!!