Archers thread #161: Kenton seems to be getting better, but the storylines aren’t. Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

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For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have]] - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Well, here we are. I was strongly tempted to go for the dog's dinner, dog/human bullies etc suggestions for the title, but Mere asked if we could not have anything graphic in the thread title, so I've held back. In a couple of weeks when this thead is nearing its end the attack may all be a distant memory, anyway.

Goodness knows what's in store for us now. Kenton seems likely to have PTSD, not surprisingly. Surely we must soon find out why HARRY talks so. Unconvincingly. Alice! Hello. CHRIS. CHRIS. etc, and also whether he is (as many of us suspect) addicted to opiates and/or up to no good. Too much to hope why nobody in Ambridge horsey circles had ever heard of him until recent weeks.

Over to you!

Since you mention marriage vows …. It’s interesting that Shula was generally applauded for breaking her marriage vows because she was bored, whereas Denise, who also claims to be in a dead marriage,is being criticised. The difference, of course, is that Denise is responding to another man, whereas Shula just left.

It's MN Rules. It's OK to leave because you aren't in love any more but not OK to start something with OM/OW while still in a relationship.

Is it just me or is Charlotte Higgins piece devoid of humour?

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with someone leaving a marriage because it isn’t working for them anymore. But I do think it’s wrong to start lining up other options before you’ve bothered to tell your spouse. It’s the dishonesty that’s a problem

it is of course particularly gross because they work together, also work with her son, and I’m guessing she won’t leave him in the foreseeable because his mum is sick/about to die

Am not a fan of Denise/Alistair storyline (although I enjoyed it more when she first worked at the vets). Paul’s obtuseness also doesn’t help, when he’s been shown to be fairly perceptive as a character. And Jim is very out of character too. All in all it’s irritating

I just think it’s a shame that what could have been a nice friendship between Alistair and Denise has ended up like this.

Harrison's problems seem in part stem from the fact that he works where he lives. I'd always understood (from the policemen I've known) that it was usual to live elsewhere to avoid exactly this kind of conflict of interest and also because you might not want to keep coming up against criminals you've arrested in your day to day life. This is obviously purely anecdotal based on a few officers I've known - does anyone with more expertise have any thoughts on this.

I thought the same, @LillianGish - it seems unfair of his employers to have kept him in a situation where he’s bound to come up against this sort of difficulty.

(If I were representing him I might mutter something about their failure in their duty of care. Norris mentioned the first incident with Phillip - they knew there was a problem then, and should have transferred Harrison to a more distant area (even if still within commuting distance for Archers purposes).

(Judges I’ve know in the past who lived in the same small town as the court in which they sat were grateful for their wigs - which went some way to rendering them less recognisable in the street to those they’d previously sentenced. This was at a time when there were voices calling for the removal of all horsehair, bands, robing and pageantry from the justice system; no one asked lawyers how they felt about it.)

I must be the only one who likes the Denise/Alistair storyline.

I think they are trying to make it as acceptable as possible with Alistair wrestling with his conscience and struggling to hold off from even kissing Denise. I thought her speech last night was by way of illustrating that the marriage has been over for a while - I’m not sure why she couldn’t just have been separated. We’ve don’t know her husband - her being separated would have been no more notional than Jolene’s Wolverhampton incident. The trouble is, without knowing him we are free to attribute all sorts of qualities to him (particularly anyone who has has ever been on the receiving end of a partner having an affair with someone they met at work). I also think having her son working at the practice adds an extra layer of ick - I can’t imagine he’d be overjoyed (but who knows - maybe he’ll be all: «You two are made for each other » and delighted to welcome Alistair as step-father.

Let's hope her son has a normal reaction to this scenario, as the other people who know about it seem to have lost their mind and morals and are treating it like love's old young dream.
I agree if she had already been separated for a few years it would have been better although still not nice for her son working there, but the way it's being done now is so tawdry. I bet he will find out by coming across them snogging in the medicine cupboard or something along those lines.

I’m not the biggest fan of Paul but can see that he could bring something long term so would be a shame if he was to leave because of his mothers behaviour

we don’t know her husband but in recent months he’s been shown to be supportive (turning up at her exercise class) and I don’t know what to make of the uncle sl. No doubt the sw will tell us it was a trial separation

Not her debut, surely? Helen being found Not Guilty of Rob's attempted murder was one of her great successes, given that there wasn't the slightest doubt that Helen had indeed stabbed Rob and nearly killed him. I know the judge and jury accepted Anna Tregorran's argument that it was self-defence because of Rob's behaviour, but how realistic was that?

I like to think this puppy-fairy is holding an arrow, which is as close as I can get to an Archer(s) Justice Fairy image.

[Nurse! The screens .... again.]

Denise referred to her kids so Paul has a sibling? Who knew. (I’ve only just listened to yesterday’s episode as was scared at the prospect of hearing a slurping kiss). Sounds like she wants to have her cake and eat it. Doesn’t want the upheaval of separating but wants Alistair to stick around so she can have ‘fun’, whatever that entails, at work.

Alistair sounds like a giddy 18 year old. It’s a bit disturbing.

Helen and Rob were in the kitchen. The knife was in the kitchen. Murder only applies if a situation, even though not planned specifically, could result in death. Such as taking a knife to a party. Not being in a room where a knife already is. And being provoked. That would be manslaughter.

We knew she had more than one child because her character page on the Archers website says "Both of her children have fledged the nest" (I think they meant either "are fledged" or "have fled the nest" but got the two conflated).

What? You can’t murder someone in a kitchen?! I’m off to speak ti DH about his dishwasher stacking in that case. An accident might happen.

Murder has to be premeditated. Manslaughter is not.

Taking a knife to a party would be defined as premeditated. Finding one in a drawer in a kitchen would not.

But you could walk into a kitchen with the intent to murder using the knife you know would be in the drawer?

Yes you could. But the defence of self-defence would stand if the circumstances were right.

If you took a knife to a party, you'd find it hard to plead self-defence.

Surely it depends on the party. The annual knife throwers bash could be problematic

Very Misomer Murders...

“You’ll always find one in the kitchen at parties” 🎵

Goodness, how complicated Helen's case was! It was her knife, and she was in her kitchen, but she wasn't using it, and her victim picked it up, handed it to her and instructed her to kill with it.

The trouble is, he instructed her to kill herself, not him. No wonder she was confused and made such a poor job of it!

I thought that the mens rea for murder was malice aforethought, which includes intending to do something likely to seriously injure/kill (but doesn’t necessarily need premeditation). Manslaughter would be unlawful killing without that intent.