Archers thread #156: Fireworks in Ambridge! Helen gave Lee a rocket, but Grey Gables is a damp squib. Is the writing on the (church) wall?Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you're irresistibly attracted to George Grundy, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: //www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to @OverArmour for the title suggestion, which I have tweaked a bit. I was strongly tempted by Less GGP (Grey Gables Peril) More GPP (Guinea Pig Plot), which was a plaintive cry from @PuppyPerson some days ago, but if Poppy has found new homes for the baby guinea pigs that may be the last we hear of them for some time, sadly.

Surely in the life of the next thread we must hear more from or of Rob, or Ron as some on this thread prefer to call him? <taps foot> Will Kirsty snap and tell Helen a few home truths? Will Pat's shotgun finally be brought into play? We can only hope ...

Also, will we ever find out who owns the other 60% of Grey Gables? Why is Adil AWOL (to use the other bit of OverArmour's title idea!)? Why aren't we hearing from Roy? Will GG ever re-open and will Emma get her Big Chance at last?

So many questions! Over to you.

[bilbodog]

Thanks!

[faffadoodledo]

Tuning in....

[Bruisername]

Thanks! Good title!!

[Fink]

Thanks @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Re. 'how awful people often are about Helen' (end of the last thread)
I thought Helen didn't directly kill her pony, but she did make him permanently disabled through leaving him in the grain store. But I thought that when he later died from gorging himself again, that wasn't anything to do with Helen, it was a completely separate incident which finally did for him (albeit exactly the same MO). Helen had no idea what she was doing and only wanted to keep him warm on a cold night. So childish ignorance rather than malice. Disclaimer: I was very young at the time, I have no idea about the details. AskingQuestionsATT could clarify, when she joins the new thread.

Anyway, dislike of Helen is kind of natural. What makes her an interesting, and somewhat realistic character is that she has suffered a lot as a victim of DV but also isn't a saint herself. Nothing comparable to Rob, obviously, but she is an annoying person and has made a lot of bad decisions in her life that weren't related to him. I think that makes her more rounded than a character whose entire misfortune could be blamed on her awful ex and who is in herself wonderful in every way.

[LighthouseTheme]

The horse incident was ridiculous and unrealistic. The owner of the injured horse should be suing the yard for complete incompetence; a pair of bumbling idiots, without a plan, and no mention of the horse's owner's wishes.
Does the vet have the facilities for "surgery" - sounds as though the horse would have needed a GA or very strong sedation.
Our horses were OK with fireworks (even the highly strung ones). The Vicarage next door to their field would - annoyingly - have a massive display every year, and they still never even twitched whisker. Just a bit of a side-eye maybe.
I have seen at least two impalement injuries (one on a crazy pregnant mare - the other on a very young but very large colt; hers was on the flank, and his so close to the heart between the front legs) - many layers of suturing were needed, but no surgery thank God.
I don't know who writes this material, that makes them look so stupid.

[CaptainMyCaptain]

I was wondering about how they transferred the badly injured horse to the surgery and whether they had the facilities for this kind of operation in Ambridge.

In All Creatures Great and Small they operated in situ but I expect things have moved on a bit.

[WitcheryDivine]

Jakob did say that if the horse could walk he would take her away and operate and (I think) that she'd need a GA. Glad it seems to have gone well.

I agree with Fink that Helen (like Tom, but more interesting) is complicated as well as being a bit of a pain. She's very well drawn. And yes very often in life people who have something horrible done to them AREN'T saintly angels before, but no that doesn't mean they brought it on themselves. It makes it more complicated for people to be sympathetic to them sometimes though.

[Fink]

Anisha was an equine specialist and they bought some high tech horsey vet stuff (which Alistair still had to pay for when she'd gone, IIRC). So it's possible that they still have that on site, under the new ownership. I know nothing of vet practices and how likely it would be for the specialist equipment to stay on site once they lost the specialist vet.

[AskingQuestionsAllTheTime]

@CaptainMyCaptain

I was wondering about how they transferred the badly injured horse to the surgery and whether they had the facilities for this kind of operation in Ambridge.

In All Creatures Great and Small they operated in situ but I expect things have moved on a bit.

Edited

As I understood it, they got her to her feet and walked her there.

Conveniently, there is an extensive equine specialist unit at the Ambridge stables, which is also where the vets' surgery is; Anisha insisted that Alistair had to pay for its installation for her use, before bogging off to Newmarket leaving him to pay for it and without the special training to use it.

Fortunately, Jakob is a specialist equine vet, though this mostly seems to have been forgotten as he treats cats and goldfish.

[AskingQuestionsAllTheTime]

@Fink

Thanks @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Re. 'how awful people often are about Helen' (end of the last thread)
I thought Helen didn't directly kill her pony, but she did make him permanently disabled through leaving him in the grain store. But I thought that when he later died from gorging himself again, that wasn't anything to do with Helen, it was a completely separate incident which finally did for him (albeit exactly the same MO). Helen had no idea what she was doing and only wanted to keep him warm on a cold night. So childish ignorance rather than malice. Disclaimer: I was very young at the time, I have no idea about the details. AskingQuestionsATT could clarify, when she joins the new thread.

Anyway, dislike of Helen is kind of natural. What makes her an interesting, and somewhat realistic character is that she has suffered a lot as a victim of DV but also isn't a saint herself. Nothing comparable to Rob, obviously, but she is an annoying person and has made a lot of bad decisions in her life that weren't related to him. I think that makes her more rounded than a character whose entire misfortune could be blamed on her awful ex and who is in herself wonderful in every way.

Oh yes, Helen didn't intend to cause her beloved pony agonising pain which eventually led to his death, any more than Pip intended to kill a sheep and her two lambs when she was too busy chasing a boy to be bothered to put water into their trough one hot morning.

The fact remains that these animals died in unpleasant ways because of actions taken (or not taken) by individuals who must therefore be held responsible for the deaths. That's what happened. There is no point in trying to pretend it didn't.

To me there is something a little illogical in loathing a person because of their universally nasty behaviour to everyone they have anything to do with, but then feeling obliged to pretend that everything nasty they do after a certain date is because someone else was nasty to them for a change. Their essential nastiness is not negated by the other person also being nasty, and I find that I resent having to pretend that it somehow is. It feels like not being supposed to say someone is a shit because he happens to belong to a minority; in my experience you get disabled shits and black shits and redheaded shits just as much as you get white shits, and also disabled people and black people and redheads who are absolutely lovely people.

There are times when I look at Helen having been abused and mutter "karma".

[CompaniesHouse]

Re: ED. It’s a standard part of ED treatment for a dietician to be involved. Multi professional care is best practice, a dietician is one of them. It’s not as simple as a dietician providing advice about that to eat etc, ED dieticians are specialists in the field. I don’t find it annoying or incorrect for Helen to have a dietician appointment. Also, NHS practice varies from health trust to health trust. In my trust, ED support is one of the very few to have no waiting list at all. Not sure if that’s due to service structure or lack of demand but I have first hand experiencing of referring someone and them getting seen by the MDT within two weeks, and having their treatment package in place immediately after.

anyway, also agree with @curlewkate that some of the comments on Helen are a little disingenuous and perhaps intentionally “spun”. Can’t just be me who would only say “she killed her pony” if I was implying a direct, intentional, and active act of killing. If someone’s pony died as a result of reasons like them being a misguided child, making a mistake, ignorance, or careless accident, I would phrase it differently.

agree with PPs musings on what makes Helen such an effective character in The Archers. I can’t say I particularly like her but she’s very “real”.

[Fink]

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Oh yes, Helen didn't intend to cause her beloved pony agonising pain which eventually led to his death, any more than Pip intended to kill a sheep and her two lambs when she was too busy chasing a boy to be bothered to put water into their trough one hot morning.

The fact remains that these animals died in unpleasant ways because of actions taken (or not taken) by individuals who must therefore be held responsible for the deaths. That's what happened. There is no point in trying to pretend it didn't.

To me there is something a little illogical in loathing a person because of their universally nasty behaviour to everyone they have anything to do with, but then feeling obliged to pretend that everything nasty they do after a certain date is because someone else was nasty to them for a change. Their essential nastiness is not negated by the other person also being nasty, and I find that I resent having to pretend that it somehow is. It feels like not being supposed to say someone is a shit because he happens to belong to a minority; in my experience you get disabled shits and black shits and redheaded shits just as much as you get white shits, and also disabled people and black people and redheads who are absolutely lovely people.

There are times when I look at Helen having been abused and mutter "karma".

Glad you're here @AskingQuestionsAllTheTime - do you have any insight (or does Lowfield) as to whether Helen had anything to do with the second gorging incident which led more immediately to Comet having to be put down? He was obviously still sick from the first time, but I don't know whether she also directly caused the second case?

[faffadoodledo]

@CompaniesHouse then you are blessed in your area. I'm glad.

And agree multi disciplinary intervention is best. Shame TA gives the impression that a quick appointment with a dietician will do the trick.

[EBearhug]

And agree multi disciplinary intervention is best. Shame TA gives the impression that a quick appointment with a dietician will do the trick.

It was a surprise to hear she was seeing the dietician, so there could be other treatment we're not hearing about (which is fine; I don't want to hear everything Helen does.)

It's a different slant on the story once you realise it's eating disorder, not erectile dysfunction that's being discussed... (I may have spent too long on OLD.)

[TottersBlanklyIntoBimboCore]

Thanks @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g! Wonderful, as always.

[harriethoyle]

Checking in!

[LillianGish]

What makes her an interesting, and somewhat realistic character is that she has suffered a lot as a victim of DV but also isn't a saint herself. Nothing comparable to Rob, obviously, but she is an annoying person and has made a lot of bad decisions in her life that weren't related to him. I think that makes her more rounded than a character whose entire misfortune could be blamed on her awful ex and who is in herself wonderful in every way. Very well put @Fink - that’s exactly how I feel about Helen. She’s extremely well written and acted and there’s a consistency to her which is most welcome.

[TherapistInATabard]

Great thread title, thanks @Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g . Last night’s episode was dull. I don’t know why, but I would have thought that Ian was the affectionate one, and Adam more concerned about what other people think. As I say, I’m not sure why I think that.

[Bruisername]

But if Helen was 8 when the pony gorged itself I don’t think you can blame her but her parents.

I don’t like the way people revel in anything bad that happens to her as if she deserves it. That was one of the reasons o was uneasy about the dv sl - almost an idea that it wouldn’t happen to me because I’m a nice person but Helen - well she deserves it. This idea that there is something wrong with you if you are a victim

[CaptainMyCaptain]

Thanks for the horse explanation. I missed the bit where Jakob said he could walk.

[Scarydinosaurs]

I am in a minority in that I really like Helen. And if I’m honest, I think I’m quite similar to her: I’ve had an eating disorder, recovered, lapsed, recovered again. I can look back and see I’ve not always been a nice person - particularly when I’ve been unwell - and have had many awful relationships when I was younger.

I completely reject the idea that ‘karma’ gave her the experience of being raped and abused by her husband.

It’s far more realistic to depict characters who are made up of good and bad traits.

I wouldn’t enjoy listening to a show where we have cartoonish villains and saintly heroes.

On the topic of Lee - she’s being awful towards him, and it’s such a sudden change. More than just ‘ick’ it’s as if his whole mindset and personality type offends her.

There is no coming back for them now - and I fear this is going to stir up more trouble for Henry and Jack.

Can anyone pinpoint when this change started? When was the idea of marriage brought up? Helen was struggling with intimacy, was that the beginning of the end?

[PuppyPerson]

Hello 👋
If Mia has got rid of all the babies already, (which it does sound like she has), what on earth was the point of that whole plot?! To facilitate the awkward sex chat between Brad and George, and to expose George as the inexperienced braggart we all know he is?
Has she kept the mother? Her pig not being alone was the original point...
Surely the babies should have stayed with mum a little longer, they take some weeks to wean I think?!
So many guinea pig questions remain!
And, talking about GPs is definitely more fun that talking about Helen and grey gables (most of the time anyway!) 😁

[harriethoyle]

Yes @Scarydinosaurs I think the evening where her date night ended in tears was a big red flag as to how Ron's return had affected her but I also think there's always been an undertone of exasperation - affectionate in the past, but things like when the boys got hold of a particular action figure, the disastrous painting of Henry's (I think) bedroom etc. He's always seemed a bit childish and she more like a parent. And there was a clear split when she told Tony she couldn't imagine living with his kids but expected him to live with, and parent, hers. That's got even clearer recently when she's trying to discipline Henry and he's intervened in a way that she had thought was undermining her... has definitely felt like she's kept Lee at arms length for quite a while now.

[Scarydinosaurs]

I agree @harriethoyle they've been an unusual couple. It’s entirely realistic to depict them struggling with step parenthood - it is hard!

If this is the end for them the split is going to be messy.

[Fink]

She told Kirsty last week that there hasn't been any sexual relationship for a while, so I think we are to understand that the aborted attempt was the last time they tried to be intimate. They have been living like a mother with three children for quite a while.