Archers thread #149: This is not a drill, it’s a plot device. Here’s hoping for Stella-r rows in Ambridge. Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you think George Grundy's bantz make him a great laugh and totally harmless to women, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks for title suggestions - @FallonsNewCoat started us off with Drilling down OR What’s the drill?: So many jobs hanging in the balance - what’s planned for Adam, Stella, Freddie and horrible George?, @OverArmour's suggestion was ‘Drilling down on less than Stella-r performances and who will be a pig in muck’ and @TeenDivided contributed the laserdrill focussed Lets drill into plot holes and hope George gets his comeuppance. I went for a bit of all of that. The phrase at the back of my head, which I am very pleased to have tracked down, was from one of my favourite film franchises where the character Conklin says in Jason Bourne's memory This is not a drill, soldier. We clear on that? This is a live project. You are go. Training is over. Training is over. Well, that's us, troops. Training is over, discussing The Archers is a live project, and it's our job to drill down into all aspects of what we hear.

On the last thread, people were discussing how unrealistic the portrayal of mental health problems is on TA. I wholeheartedly agree, but I suppose they don't feel they can tackle long-running slow burn storylines that often. They made a great effort with Jack Woolley's Alzheimer's. Other than that, I don't recall anybody having a recurring illness that's been portrayed realistically (and actually that goes for physical conditions as well). Most things clear up and are hardly mentioned again. Sticking just to mental illness, Pat had depression after John died, Mike Tucker had a bad bout of depression, so did Elizabeth. Helen's ED may or may not be about to re-appear, but nobody's mentioning it. Ben's rapid-onset depresssion recently led to a psychotic episode but now he's fine, not least because he got prompt, skilled and appropriate treatment on the NHS, unlike most of the UK. This is one area where I feel they shouldn't even attempt it if they can't do it in a way that reflects the reality of what most of us experience, for ourselves and our loved ones.

Anyway, with that off my chest - over to you!

Just caught up on the episodes. I'm sure someone has already said this but Lee hasn't twigged yet that he'll be barred from visiting his daughters because of this incident.

Abusive men must try to gain access to their children all the time to torment their partners - demonstrating how insidious this can be would have been a good storyline in itself.

thank you, @LillianGish came here to quote you because i thought you put it really well. Such a missed chance here. I mean we have already shown how women who attack abusive husbands are treated harshly and that years of undermining and provocation are ignored.

And now this. Gah. It is really really annoying me. For a 15 minute a day show, that certainly has riled me up.

isn't his job at risk too?

I guess they could 'rescue' Lee by having Knob refuse to accept community resolution so it goes to court and a jury lets him off. Mind you, in Lee's shoes I really wouldn't want to rely on Tom as a witness, it would be child's play for the prosecution to tie him up in knots.

They handled the original storyline badly too; by making it about the little mo type revenge crime when it could have been a really good exploration of coercive control and the new criminal code around that. Just as now it's about Lee assaulting rob not about the reality of dealing with an abuser and the family courts. There is plenty of drama to be had in such a storyline without being histrionic.

for me The Archers is supposed to be a more-or-less real time telling of life in the country. (my life, basically)

So life moves with the rhythm of the farming calendar (the original purpose was to disseminate govt info to farmers, after all) and so on. The Christmas show, the summer fete etc

The real nastiness of Susan over Jim's glasses and the awful way they've handled the Lee & Hellen story is just... meh. Agree with @WilkinsonM there.

And Lee not having a solicitor. Who in their right mind ever ever ever goes to an interview with the Plod without one? Someone young and not worldly wise and has no idea how things can escalate. I know of someone who bought a replica sword (he was into role play and wargaming), was picked up by police as he carried it home, no solicitor, accepted a caution, which can’t be done without an acceptance of guilt. Whereas the offence is carrying without good reason, not simply carrying, and a solicitor would have been able to advise on the chances of being found not guilty.

but we all watch TV now? how are people so ignorant of their rights?
Perhaps it should be taught at school?

I mean i am hugely cynical and do not trust any of the police one jot, so i admit that i am jaded and biased. But bloody hell.

A replica sword is a sword, isn't it?

Helen will obviously want to refuse which will place her in an impossible position as refusing will mean Lee goes to prison and can’t visit his girls. She will choose to protect her boys and this will be the beginning of the end of her relationship with Lee

I’ll be cross if Helen and Lee split if only because TA storylines tend to have the women remain single and unhappy vs the men. Going back a good few years granted, but I’m thinking Cathy vs Kenton and Tom vs Kirsty. In both those cases the men ended up happily married with new relationships but nothing working out for the women. Were there others? Felt entirely like misogynist tropes to me. So I’ll be very cross if it happens to Helen.

I quite agree

The writers are trying too hard for big drama when more slow burn realism would be much more interesting and would ensure that TA remains different to the TV soaps.

I’ll be cross if Helen and Lee split if only because TA storylines tend to have the women remain single and unhappy vs the men. Going back a good few years granted, but I’m thinking Cathy vs Kenton and Tom vs Kirsty. In both those cases the men ended up happily married with new relationships but nothing working out for the women. Were there others? Felt entirely like misogynist tropes to me. So I’ll be very cross if it happens to Helen.

it just looks worse and worse. Awful awful SWs. They should be ashamed to churn out such dross

Could someone tell me exactly what happened with Lee and Rob? I switched off, I don’t want to have to listen to this horrible storyline of misery.

I agree with most of the above, however don't think Helen will lost "custody" inverted commas as it doesn't exist any more, it's contact time.

She's definitely made it much harder to argue that the children / Jack need(s) to be with her 24/7 to be safe.

Yes they need to stop the additional drama, there's enough of that in the "average" abused woman's life.

Will we ever be told whether the intern just got the dates wrong re 20,000th episode?!

No comment that hasn't already been made on the Twattish Two and their attempt at a bit of old fashioned thuggery.

But I did really enjoy Neil putting George through his paces and actually seeming to connect with him about being less of a prick. I know it's not magic and won't work but it was a nice scene - and the piglet diving.

@Brefugee my dd went to a school that had only one third white pupils. They were all taught their rights in a stop and search situation, repeatedly, in several assemblies.

I share your views, and my opinion of people who 'no comment' their way through an interview has done a 180 in the last 20 years.

@Tratjymp I think the issue is the intent. I am not sure about weapons because some offences you don't need to have intent to do something unlawful. But in this case if he was not carrying with the intent to use it as a weapon, then he might not be found guilty.

It seems Helen just isn't meant to be happy so I won't be surprised if she breaks up with Lee. Her relationships have been one shitshow after another lurching from Greg, the Aussie guy who got Greg's daughter pregnant and then onto Rob.

Unfortunately her 'happy' relationship with Lee has never really seemed authentic. I can't believe someone like Helen would truly be interested in a man who collects super hero models, practices martial arts, enjoys all you can eat Chinese buffets and doesn't know one end of a cow from another. There is zero chemistry (although I think this is due to her personality more than anything). As awful as Tom and Natasha are, I do think they are fairly well suited and there is some kind of spark about their marriage. On the other hand I think Helen has settled for an incredibly dull relationship after so many horrendous disappointments.

Just putting my head around the door to point out that Lee facing an assault charge means he may not have touched him at all (this of course assumes the SWs have bothered to consult the Offences Against the Person Act). When I was at law school it went this -

Assault - there is no need for physical contact to be charged with assault, the victim just has to be in immediate fear. Assault can also be things like spitting or verbal intimidation. If minor contact is made that can be assault

Battery - this is where any physical contact is made, it doesn't need to be hard and it doesn't need to cause injury.

Actual Bodily Harm - where there is contact and harm, which can include bruising but would not be severe

Wounding- again actual harm but more serious and can include blood loss eg a contact with the nose leading to a nosebleed or a scratch

Grievous Bodily Harm - serious injury

Attempted Murder

etc

Each has a bar to get over and the action has to coincide with the intention.

I agree though, monumentally stupid of both of them.

One of the questions for the visa waiver/ESTA for the USA is (or was when I did it last) have you ever been arrested or convicted of a crime which resulted in harm to a person or property. So for Lee just putting himself in the position of potentially being arrested jeopardises his ability to easily travel to see his girls.

But then the non existent discussions around visa when Lee was considering moving to the USA to be with them showed that the script writers didn’t get this. The USA is actually one of the hardest countries to legally move to if you’re not very rich or married to a citizen.

Him having an arrest/conviction is not a bar to entry per se. He could get a waiver but it takes an absolute age (a friend had to do it).

But he and Tom are both idiots anyway. And Pat is an enabler.

IT is. But he had good reason to be carrying it. Mind, if it wasn't carefully wrapped up then he does only have himself to blame.

Anna agrees with me re it making it hard to state that Helen is providing a safe home for Jack and Henry....

As far as we can tell, Tom and Lee went to deliver their message to Rob, Rob went into his victim act, then started goading Lee (a quoted comment was to the effect of Lee being all brawn and no brains), Lee decided to leave, Rob was in the way, Lee went to push him aside, Rob fell over and cracked his head. Miles was watching too.

Yep! Noticed that and thought about your comment!