🎭 Archers thread 125: Ambridge Mysteries! The Case Of The Missing Pandemic. Where Is Pat? What Is Lynda Snell's Kompromat? Follow the clues and discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you’d love to be in the Mysteries, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3853783--The-Archers-spoilers-thread-5-Cant-wait-for-7-02pm-Join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks for thread title ideas to @Roysnewshirt and @Witchwife. Apologies if I’ve forgotten anyone else.

Do we think the Mysteries replace the usual fun storylines around giving things up for Lent? Light relief while we wait to see if the SWs go for realism and tragedy when Alice’s baby is born, or bottle out (as it were) and go for everything being fine? Will Jazzer and Tracy get back together again? (No bookie in the land would take money for that, of course they will.)

Over to you!

Shula's pregnancy was very much wanted. Lexie's was planned. Helen's were planned, once by her, once by Rob. Apart from Kate and Alice and Kirsty, how many unintended pregnancies have their been? Siobhan, I suppose. Phoebe went for the MAP, didn't she, so actively preventing it.

I have a number of friends (I can think of at least three,) whose first children weren't entirely planned - they were married, but it was planned for down the line rather than when it happened. All educated - one even has a PhD in something to do with sheep fertility. And in at least one case, the future grandparents were asking why it took them so long, so it wasn't seen as accidental by all.

So I'm not sure it's that many unplanned pregnancies in Ambridge. Seems feasible to me.

Jazzer will have a post-nativity epiphany, reassess his life and go off to train as a paramedic

Definitely! He really stepped up and was excellent in a crisis! I think he will realise Jade is probably not ready for motherhood at the moment so hopefully that will be the end of that relationship. But isn’t Tracey unlikely to want another child at her age, which could mean Jazzer would miss out on fatherhood entirely.

I would love him to become a paramedic (big Casualty fan so love any hint of a medical drama), less so a midwife as I’m afraid I still think it’s a slightly suspect career choice for a man.

Having said that, Alice was lucky to have Jazzer on hand to help her through the birth - so much better than panicky Chris...

David and Ruth didn't plan Ben. He was a harvest related accident as I recall. Then there was Ruth's miscarriage too.
Elizabeth's twins were planned.
Nelson Gabriel had an accidental daughter who turned out to be a policewoman. And of course there was the major scandal accident - Jennifer's pregnancy with Adam.

I think that what most people mean by a planned pregnancy is that both parents intended it to happen at around that point.

So I wouldn't be counting Helen's second pregnancy as planned.

Gosh. Is premature birth a possible consequence of heavy drinking in early pregnancy? Sadly, I can't see the BBC pursuing a storyline like this and having everything turn out just fine after all. Poor baby.

I was never convinced Ruairi's conception was an accident. Siobhan wanted a child. I'm sure she thought that was the one thing that would persuade Brian to leave Jennifer. It nearly was, especially once Brian knew he had a son. Bleurgh.

That was a turn around. There must be a ration of competent writing for the week and it all got used yesterday! Very convincing.

@Roysnewshirt I think Jade will be very dismissive of Jazzer’s experience - “babies, yuk - how lame” (or some such SW-imagined yoof put down) - whereas he was obviously moved by the experience. Watching a baby born is an amazing thing and Jazzer was clearly emotional when the baby (finally) started crying. So that’ll be the end of Jade.
Then he’ll bump into
Tracey in the shop and she’ll congratulate him on being useful in a crisis and he’ll be all modern and embarrassed and they’ll realise that actually they love each other after all. And Tracey’s ‘seize the day’ attitude will encourage Jazzer to leave his fishponds and re-train as... whatever.

Our local male midwife is retiring soon after more than 20yrs on labour ward. He’s a lovely, lovely man (worked as a District Nurse too for several years) and an excellent midwife. He’ll be much missed by staff and patients. I agree that it’s an unusual career for men, but not suspect. No one thinks it odd that the majority of O+G consultants are men (or not in the same way, anyway). I think midwifery is just behind nursing in opening up to men, and I suspect male midwives will always be a tiny minority, but they can be great.

In The Archers, of course, Jazzer will re-train as whatever the interest group that is advising the SWs is in favour of

modest and embarrassed

I think the thing about the baby not crying is always a bit of a dramatic device. When I gave birth I remember asking desperately why she wasn't crying and the midwife calmly told me she was fine and they don't always cry.

Yes I was thinking of Kirsty and Pip (quite close in time to each other) and Ruth’s miscarriage. Kate of course. Siobhan (possibly). Alice. Helen although that was abuse rather than accident. I presume George wasn’t planned? Any idea on Tracey’s kids?

Apart from Kate and Alice and Kirsty, how many unintended pregnancies have their been?
I might have missed it being mentioned, but Pip? Admittedly the thing has had zero detectable impact on her life, bar the occasional sleepless night, but it was an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy. And Vickoi, of course. Too many, anyway.

Gasp0de Drinking in pregnancy does increase the risk of premature birth (not sure how much if the mother has stopped drinking, though). If prematurity is the only consequence and it is otherwise healthy I am going to be very annoyed - and not solely out of malice Alish was given pretty wishy-washy advice, imo, not that having bloody Christopher glued to her side Rob-style made for frank conversation with the midwife.

Oh, and regarding male midwives, imo it is inherently suspect as it prioritises male wants ('I want this career') over female needs - dignity, privacy, the right to an HCP of the same sex. On that last ground alone, the existence of male midwives potentially makes ensuring safe staffing ratios more challenging.

Adam Macey was unplanned way back.

@theThreeofWeevils there’s no reason that a male midwife can’t provide appropriate dignity and privacy for a woman in labour. Obviously women should be able to request a female HCP if that’s their preference (as should men - although ime as a GP this is much rarer) but male midwives themselves are not inherently suspect, and to suggest that they are is implying - what? That they’re all sex offenders or something?

I wonder if the baby will have ongoing health issues and her being premature will mask Alice and Chris's concerns over FAS... it will become another family secret.

On the other hand the FAS may be picked up quicker because she’s prem, and therefore has paeds follow-up... but yes, the prematurity maybe gives C+A a cover story for any ongoing problems.

male midwives themselves are not inherently suspect, and to suggest that they are is implying - what? That they’re all sex offenders or something
@Prestissimo, I thought I explained above why I find the existence of male midwives problematic - putting the wants of males - for a particular career - above the needs of women. There are plenty of women who, for cultural or religious reasons, could not accept a male as birth attendant. And there is also the possibility that the presence of males may actually retard labour in some cases.
Some male midwives may be sex offenders - no reason to assume they offend at a lesser or greater rate than men in general - but that was not the basis of my argument.

...male midwives themselves are not inherently suspect, and to suggest that they are is implying - what? That they’re all sex offenders or something?

Certainly not implying this at all but it does add an extra dynamic into the mix when you have a male doctor for a gynae appointment or a male nurse for a smear which, for many, simply isn’t there when you see another woman. Of course you know they have seen it all before and are professionals doing their job but these things occasions are unpleasant enough without adding a strange man into the mix. To dismiss this and pretend gender issues don’t matter is unrealistic.

Full disclosure, I have never actually given birth so may be by that stage in the proceedings the pain is so great that no one cares anyway.

I like Prestissimo's scenario re Jade etc.

I have now revised my prognostication and think it more likely that Jazzer will become serious about settling down, fatherhood and pig farming.

The Ambridge Job Fairy will then provide.

fatherhood and pig farming
insofar as a meaningful distinction can be drawn between the two... Gilts by association .
Do we really need another Ambridge man besotted with blasted babies?

I’m not in any way dismissing some women’s need to have a female birth attendant. Or any HCP for that matter. But I wonder if the knee jerk reactions against male midwives in particular is because it’s traditionally seen as a woman’s job, with all the prejudice that that implies? Traditionally (and still, in many parts of the world) it would have been women who helped other women with birthing, but that was due to (often) their own experience, lack of other options for healthcare and also I suspect the fact that men were simply too busy and important to have anything to do with it.

My point is that midwives are often in a unique position to build a relationship with a woman and her birthing partner during the labour. It’s not a ‘strange man’ suddenly walking in and delivering the baby - although that is what happens if you need e.g. a forceps or ventouse delivery: it’s very often a male obstetrician who you’ve probably never met before and literally the first thing he does is inject anaesthetic (if you’re lucky), do an episiotomy and crack on. People don’t respond to that with the same prejudice as they do for male midwives though. I just think it’s worth considering why we think that way.

I don’t think it’s putting a male desire for a specific career above the wants or needs of women. (I suppose you could say that about other careers - how about the lousy teacher who puts their own want of a salary or to dispense knowledge above the needs of the children they teach? Maybe that’s a silly example.) And I think that men on the whole are not going to be flocking to the profession. But surely some men have the appropriate attitudes and care and desires to help women and their partners through a challenging and life-changing experience. I don’t think we can (or should) say that that’s an exclusively female skill set.

I’m probably defensive because I know my colleague to have been an excellent midwife - I know this from personal and professional experience. I am not dismissing the need or wish of other women to have a female midwife - for any reason or none - but I think that I’m general we’re in dangerous territory when we say that there are ‘women’s jobs’ and ‘men’s jobs’. This is where pay gaps, genderism and discrimination come from.

It would be nice if Jazzer could be a great stepdad for Brad and Chelsea. No additional babies required in that scenario.

Oh, and regarding male midwives, imo it is inherently suspect as it prioritises male wants ('I want this career') over female needs - dignity, privacy, the right to an HCP of the same sex. On that last ground alone, the existence of male midwives potentially makes ensuring safe staffing ratios more challenging.

On that basis, female prostate and vasectomy surgeons, or those who work with testicular and penile cancer, are prioritising their wish for a career over men's need for dignity, privacy etc.

I think that I’m general we’re in dangerous territory when we say that there are ‘women’s jobs’ and ‘men’s jobs’. This is where pay gaps, genderism and discrimination come from
That is undeniably true. However, it is noticeable in occupations which are traditionally done mainly by women, such as primary teaching or nursing, men are disproportionately represented in senior & management roles.
Also, I did not intend to impugn the professionalism and skills of your colleague. In reality, however, the existence of male midwives means that women who would rather not have a man in attendance can end up with one, because they aren't confident enough to object or because of the staffing situation in that particular setting on that particular day. Very fair point re obstetricians, too. It's a tricky one.

And we have drifted some considerable distance from the Carter débâcle here. Sorry about that

If we have male gynaecologists and obstetricians - and we're only just starting to get reasonable numbers of women in those jobs - then why shouldn't men be midwives?

And as I have said before - out of my acquaintances and friends I know an awful lot of unplanned pregnancies. And they all tend to be degree level intelligent people.
As I have frequently told my children - no contraception is 100% safe - and whatever method you think of I probably know at least one child born when using it. (Including the child born to a Midwife with a coil.)

Maybe the topic of male midwives could be carried on on the FWR board. i think it is quite interesting but this thead isn't really the best place perhaps?

Have missed some episodes. Has Alice's baby arrived?

My DD was prem. I go round in circles sometimes wondering which of her issues are luck v prem v genetic v neglect v being adopted. Ultimately I get nowhere. FAS is hard to spot, often adopters are told there is a 'risk' because they can't diagnose when the DC are young/toddlers.