The Archers #110: Game(keeping)'s up for Will. Game on for Lillian & Vince, Tracy & Oliver? Game over for Joe? Stay ahead of the game with all things Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to be Susan's best friend or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3439443-keep-it-to-yourself-the-archers-spoilers-thread-4, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to LillianGish for the title idea. Very tempted to go with MrsGrindah's suggestion of It’s all a bit crap and boring at the moment but let's be positive, maybe things will look up in the coming days ... Also very taken with Lexi's Midnight Runners - Burpers, maybe? - from Madcats.

Not at all happy about Lily not going to university. Yet another bright Ambridge woman not fulfilling her potential. Why do they do this?

It gets to 7pm and I gloomily think to myself "I suppose I'll have a listen." It feels a bit like a chore.

@TheSilveryPussycat I absolutely agree. I haven’t missed an episode since whenever it became possible to do catch up, but I don’t do it for pleasure!

@DadDadDad

Has it always been this bad?

No, once upon a time it was quite good. Decent characters, believable plots, soothing family based storylines interspersed with the occasional moment of high drama. The rot set in when Nigel fell off the roof...

Maybe what we need is a bit of this
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p02mlwdp

The rot set in when Nigel fell off the roof...
Actually, I think it was the passing of Phil. It's lost its way since Norman Painting went.

I agree that the loss of Phil Archer made a huge difference in terms of the wholeness of the Archer family. Sadly, much as I like her new beau, Jill doesn't work for me as a solo character.

But Nigel's demise was shocking and a signal that from now on no-one could be regarded as "safe". That was my light bulb moment.

maybe Joe will give up the ghost when he realises the boys have wrecked the priceless heritage cider press

First mention of Joe that I can remember since he went in RL.
He would have been all over Willyum's situation back in the day, so sad not to hear his voice. I can't understand why the SWs have left it this long.

No, once upon a time it was quite good. Decent characters, believable plots, soothing family based storylines interspersed with the occasional moment of high drama. The rot set in when Nigel fell off the roof...

Nah, it's always had crap times. Walter and his elephant in the '60s...

Did anyone else find “cheerful Will” really implausible tonight? And Clarrieluv telling them to have a shower? So, so clumsy.

Yes, Pant, the only element that felt believable was Ed and Will needling each other. Will has suddenly converted into someone who can step into another person's shoes (Clarrie's) and see that you never stop caring about your children however old they are - all because of one conversation with new-dad Ian.

I was annoyed at the mention of Joe, wanted to shout at them that he'd think nothing bevause he's been undead for 6 months! I'm still angry at the way they are (not) handling his death.

Not sure what Pat's excuse is I think she falls into the same camp as Helen - she has a grandson conceived by donor sperm and she can clearly see that this was a much better option than the conception of her other grandson with Knob. I do think there could and indeed would have been criticism or at least discussion in other quarters - Roy would have been the obvious person to question whether Lexi was being exploited, Susan could have tutted about the arrangement or even Jennifer herself had she raised concerns at the start of the process. But I think Jennifer’s reaction now is meant to be a misconception (if you’ll forgive the pun). The SW set out Lexi’s position v clearly in the episode where she described carry the baby as a bit of early babysitting. I think the SWs have deliberately chosen a friend rather than a random surrogate found through an agency to avoid any confusion (which is what that episode was all about). Jennifer’s reaction (and whatever she and Brian are planning) is going to seriously offend Lexi and cause a huge falling out with Ian and Adam. I don’t find it a plausible storyline at all - she’s gone from being hugely in favour of the arrangement to dead set against it.

I’m enjoying the Grundy dynamic with the boys living together back at home, but it does serve to emphasise Joe’s absence all the more.

I was cross when they talked about Clarrie doing Will's washing. She works full time, but apparently three grown men still expect her to do all their laundry for them.

Clarrie fussing around was the perfect illustration of why Will is like he is - he has been looked after by women his whole life and has grown up with the expectation that this is how life is. Ed has had the benefit of his years with Emma.

I was cross that Ed backed down and agreed that the best thing was to let Clarrie carry on being their Maid of All Work, for her own good.
It's funny how Eddie's work (cider making) needs everyone to pitch in and do family-bonding but Clarrie's work (running an entire household for grown men) should be left to her because she likes it that way, apparently.

I have ditched TA after 2 years using is as my bedtime story, as it leaves me raging rather than satisfied. Mercifully there are some great short stories on BBC Sounds to use as replacements.

So when to listen to TA? On rising from my pit, given its bracing effect on the spirit? Lunch? Might kill my digestion. In the car? Unsafe. While walking? There is so much to grind one's teeth and mutter at, one would be taken for a mad person.

Rather like the current political mess, following TA has become a painful duty, which I must follow but which outrages and frustrates beyond words.

I don't like the surrogacy story. To me it smacks of two men buying a behbeh.

I recommend listening at the normal broadcast hour - it coincides with making dinner (served at 7:15) and therefore the various clattery kitchen noises obliterate half the programme. This neatly means that you are faithfully undergoing the painful duty of listening whilst not really exposing yourself to the full impact of all the nonsense.

JennyDarling didn't have an affair with John Tregorran though did she.
She had an affair with Roger.

Yes I can remember DM saying that the whole point of that Tregorran story line was that it wasn't an affair, although it was possible John Tregorran would have liked it to be.

The affair with Roger was a bit of a once off wasn't it? He came ostensibly to visit Debbie at a time when Brian was having one of is many philandering episodes. Jenny was initially resistant but there was one occasion when she came back home with her tights inside out or something (I have no idea why that particular comment sticks in my mind). It wasn't an ongoing affair that I recall - more a one off which was opportunistic on Roger's part.

Brian on the other hand has been a serial philanderer - three affairs with named characters, other liaisons suggested and trying it on with any woman who caught his eye. He even tried it on with Betty!

The two are not at all comparable.

Clarrie fussing around was the perfect illustration of why Will is like he is - he has been looked after by women his whole life and has grown up with the expectation that this is how life is. Ed has had the benefit of his years with Emma

Yes that struck me too - Will's taking as normal that washing and cooking his breakfast is a womans job. He is going to get quite a shock when he finds himself looking for a job for the first time in his late 30s when he isn't particularly qualified for anything other than game keeping.

It's funny how Eddie's work (cider making) needs everyone to pitch in and do family-bonding but Clarrie's work (running an entire household for grown men) should be left to her because she likes it that way, apparently

Yes funny that but very typical

I think the SWs have deliberately chosen a friend rather than a random surrogate

Except this defining of Lexi as a friend is a bit iffy to me. They live in the same village but Lexi was first Adam's employee then a junior member on staff where Ian worked. Before this arrangement they were never part of the same social circle or engaging at all with each other outside of work.

She signed up for the whole surrogacy thing because it paid for her to spend the Summer at home with the girls at a time when she was worried about them. She is an employee still, not one of their besties.

I have friendly relationships with my colleagues, that certainly doesn't mean I'd want to be or have one of them be a surrogate for them.

Except this defining of Lexi as a friend is a bit iffy to me I agree it’s not perfect, but I think the episode with Lexi reassuring them was for our benefit as much as theirs. Within the confines of TA there wasn’t really another obvious candidate - Helen (too fragile), Kirsty (too old) - I’m basing my comments and reaction to this story on what Lexi herself said which seemed fairly categorical and is really all we have to go on.