The Archers #109: Pulp Fiction! Hammer Horror (Tracy), Carry On (Brian & Neil), Call the Midwife (Adam, Ian, Lexi) - but no political thrillers, Ambridge remains Brexit-free. Nitpick here!

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to be Susan's best friend or other unusual views. grin

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3439443-keep-it-to-yourself-the-archers-spoilers-thread-4, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks to Bucking Frolics and LillianGish for the title ideas, which I had to edit down a bit to get under the character limit.

I wonder if Lily will have gone back to Manchester by the time we've filled this thread.

Poor baby, poor Lexi. There are circumstances in which a newborn baby can't be with his/her birth mother, e.g. because she's ill or dead or social services have got a court to rule that it would be unsafe for the baby to stay with her. I'm sure most babies adapt to whatever the alternative care arrangements are and are OK, but it's not the ideal start in life.

In all other cases the baby and mother should be together. We're mammals, that's how we're made. After birth the baby remains close to the mother for emotional comfort as much as food. I've heard mention of the fourth trimester, i.e. the first three months of life, as a time that should almost be treated as a continuation of the pregnancy in that the mother and baby should remain together as much as possible. I was in the fortunate position of being able to do that with both my children, not because anybody had advised it, it's just what felt natural. Knackering as it was, I wouldn't have wanted it any other way.

Having said that, my own mother definitely didn't do that! I was bottle fed, four-hourly feeds, wheeled to the end of the garden in my pram so she could get on with the housework in between feeds. I was very much loved and am extremely close to my parents. So maybe I'm being precious here.

I hate this storyline.

Yes Gasp I did the same for 6 weeks , was lucky enough to be able to do so. We co-slept it felt right and was right for me too. My mum was much more child centred in her approach than most of the 5o's mums were. I was lucky there too!

I was at least relieved to hear Adam say “I hope I don’t have to carry both of you back in there” suggesting that the baby was at least sleeping in the same room as them.”

I’m surprised that they hadn’t read every bit of analysis possible on the emotional needs of the various parties in a surrogacy arrangement and thought carefully about how to handle things after the baby was born - there must be loads out there and they were all over the Internet when they were looking for a surrogate from further afield. To be honest I think that the character of Ian would have done this, and then got Adam on board. However the SWs have once again chosen to have them act out of character in order to drive the plot.

Having Lexi as nanny would be a terrible solution. But her staying in Ambridge and being a presence in the boy’s life (her role openly acknowledged) would be nice. However she split up with Roy because she needed to be with her girls and they couldn’t come here and Roy couldn’t leave his kids and go to Hungary. I can’t see how that has changed, and no way is Lexi going to prioritise the new baby over her daughters.

I felt the Jekyll and Hyde line was unfortunate. There was a very high profile case of 2 dads, one of whom in particular couldn’t cope with the demands of a small child, who called her horrible names and it ended tragically for that child.

Baby Craig-Macy is less than a week old and already Ian looks like he can’t cope and it’s slightly discomforting to hear him referring to the baby in this way. I’m undoubtedly reading too much into it.

Perhaps my view is coloured by the fact that neither parent has been through labour, neither has had to be stitched up, neither is attempting to establish breastfeeding, neither has a body that has just been through 9 months of pregnancy.
They are both on leave. This shouldn’t be that difficult for them and they shouldn’t be moaning already about how hard life with a newborn is.

However it now occurs to me that they should call the baby Craig.

However it now occurs to me that they should call the baby Craig.

Like Miranda did in Sex and the City- baby Brady Hobbes born to Miranda Hobbes and Steve Brady.

Baby Craig-Macy is less than a week old and already Ian looks like he can’t cope and it’s slightly discomforting to hear him referring to the baby in this way. I’m undoubtedly reading too much into it

Possibly. I'm not sure how well I coped with PFB at that stage - full of self doubt. By the time #4 comes along the cat takes care of them

Perhaps my view is coloured by the fact that neither parent has been through labour, neither has had to be stitched up, neither is attempting to establish breastfeeding, neither has a body that has just been through 9 months of pregnancy.

Amen. Ian's line 'She's bound to need a few days to recover' made me think that they have no flipping clue what she has been through.

I'm hesitating to jump back into the surrogacy debate, but would just point out that someone who actually acted as a surrogate for a friend stopped lurking briefly to post about her experience on here. For my own part a woman I know who was unable to carry her own child had a friend offer to act as surrogate. The child is biologically the child of my friend and her husband. I don't agree for a moment that she has been any less of a mother to that child than if she had carried it herself. Would listeners have less of an objection if Ian was not a man and Adam was married to a woman? There are lots of women who don't breastfeed for all sorts of reasons or who fail to bond with their babies immediately because of a difficult birth and in the vast majority of cases this has no effect whatsoever on the baby. Lexi chose to be a surrogate, no-one forced her, just because you can't imagine doing it yourself doesn't mean it has to have a damaging effect on women who do choose to do so (see the earlier poster). The surrogate I know is a truly amazing woman - she has not been damaged by the experience quite the contrary in fact. I'm not looking for an argument by the way, I just want to inject a bit of balance.

Thanks Lillian.

I think had they had to find a surrogate through an agency or support group they would have considered all aspects of the surrogacy in greater depth. Instead it feels as if they have been mucking around with their bucket list and now it’s a shock. My friends who adopted children had to go through a very rigorous process, I think my dog breeder was more demanding than Lexi on how this would work. I think the imbalance between Lexi’s status as an migrant worker with children in her home country and Adam as employer made her vulnerable. The difference between Lexi and the woman who enjoyed being a surrogate is huge.

Agreed Lilian.

And She’s bound to need a few days to recover - bad writing and I do not believe that the “real” Ian and Adam would be so clueless/insensitive. It’s being done for easy dramatic points and is a shame as it’s playing into the hands of those who believe that male couples should not have children by surrogacy.

Many many gay people object to surrogacy. The questions/hints around homophobia with regard to this subject are really really unfair. It makes no difference to me if surrogacy is undertaken by gay men, single women or straight couples. I don't think it was your intent Lillian but suggestions of homophobia are routinely being used against women when they express concerns about the rights of women and children. In my case, considering my life experience it is utterly ridiculous.

I liked hearing Roy being a good friend to Lexi. I would assume she needs to stay in the UK until at least the 6 week postnatal check as she can hardly get in done in Bulgaria.
Agreed with pp - unlike mums, neither Ian or Adam have any recovery to do.
The baby blues would be kicking in about now anyway.

About surrogacy: I too have been trying to work out why this example makes me wince, and I think I may have a small inkling of the reason: it is because Adam and Ian have made absolutely no effort about it whatever. All the surrogate cases I have known have happened because a woman and her partner have tried for several years, and often with more than one round of IVF, to have their own baby and not been able to; and at that point generally someone they know has offered to carry their child for them. It has not been a matter of impulse for the parents at all. But Adam and Ian? "Let's have a baby" was a sop Adam threw to Ian to shut him up, to try to mend their marriage, and nothing to do with actually wanting a baby at all. What you tend to end up with when a baby is seen as a way to paper over cracks in a relationship is a child with a broken home whom nobody really wanted right from the start.

Not everyone with a surrogate-carried baby has "bought a baby", just as not everyone who uses a sperm donor to have a child has "bought a baby"; but if it is something embarked on after a whole two minutes' consideration, without any real discussion, and only possible because the wannabe parent has the cash to pay for it... that's where I start to feel edgy. Not for the morals of it all or ethical reasons or whathaveyou; I just feel very sorry for the baby when it becomes a child and is no longer anyone's new toy, and find myself remembering the old, old comment "You often hear people saying they want a baby, but I never heard anyone childless saying they want a teenager in that same tone of voice."

Asking I do of course agree with the idea that a “band-aid baby” is a mistake. However I remember a lot more discussion around the issue than you do, especially if you include the whole abortive attempt with Ian’s friend (Maddy?). And, in the true spirit of Keri Davies, perhaps a lot more discussion took place off air.....

It’s not like Adam and Ian could try naturally so in their position they had to go immediately to surrogacy. Much like my known fertility issues meant that DH and I had to go straight to IVF as soon as we decided to have a baby (and I was too old for IVF so our son indeed only happened because we had the cash to “buy” him).

Apologies- I meant to say “too old for NHS IVF”. He was private IVF with our own eggs and sperm.

Having said that, my own mother definitely didn't do that! I was bottle fed, four-hourly feeds, wheeled to the end of the garden in my pram so she could get on with the housework in between feeds. I was very much loved and am extremely close to my parents. So maybe I'm being precious here.

Me too. And my mother always used to extol the benefits of putting the baby as far away as possible at night time. I definitely didn't follow her example, but it does demonstrate that children aren't necessarily irrevocably damaged by being away from their mother as newborns.

I didn't think it sounded like Ian wasn't coping. Sure, he was struggling a bit, but that could be said of most first-time parents when their child is only a few days old. He was perfectly calm and happy when talking about it to Roy.

My own experience of surrogacy with close family members is not good, the surrogate had a difficult birth and emergency cesarian, the adoptive parents have many issues with mental health and addiction to pain medication and abuse between the parents. As this was a surrogate going through the nhs none of these issues were picked by by the midwife.

The surrogate was totally unaware of these issues between the couple because of course they only presented their good side in the visits to her.

Their family was only told about the surrogacy once they were already pregnant and nothing could be done.

I have no doubt that social services have already been involved and there disappears a child into a horrible environment

I didn't think it sounded like Ian wasn't coping.

Hmm ... Only, given twelve and a half minutes to define the new parents for us, the SWs chose to show Ian sleepy, not soothing the baby and getting cramp in his arm - while Adam was up first, calm and baby’s favoured parent at that moment.

If that was all accidental/incidental - well, they should have written more carefully.

No, I don’t get the Ian not coping thing either. It sounded like a quite normal brand new baby sort of interaction to me! And a perfectly normal “we know rather name but we’re not telling yet” deflection.

I wondered if they were gearing up for a "dads can have post natal anxiety/depression too" kind of storyline. It kind of makes sense to me that Ian would have a harder time adjusting to the reality of a newborn when he has dreamed of it and wanted it for years and years, and no doubt thought the arrival of the baby would be the best time of his life, that he would then find it harder going than he expected. Adam meanwhile, always a bit reluctant and not bothered, possibly dreading the newborn phase a little bit, being surprised by how much he loves his son after all...

Very strange to hear Adam not being tired though

I do slightly wonder how many parents (apart from Kate, of course, who took months to make up her mind about Phoebe's name) still haven't given a name to a baby after three days. All our three got their names within the first day, and we'd had a list of "possibles" (and "impossibles"!) which we'd gradually worked out over the previous several months, so we'd got about six to choose from depending what seemed to suit the person who had now arrived. Do lots of people not think about it at all before the birth, and not have any idea after? Is this a usual thing and we were weird?

I have a sort of suspicion that what is going on is that Ian has chosen the name he wants, and Adam doesn't like it. What Ian said before the Jekyll and Hyde comment seemed to suggest that they were having a disagreement rather than just not wanting to announce a name they already knew. "There's a definite favourite." Hmmm. "A momentous decision" -- and you haven't both given it lots of thought already, together, and eliminated the names that either of you doesn't like? Hmmm.

Just LA because I could only half hear last night due to background noise at home.

Roy did one of my least favourite baby lines, describing a newborn as 'well-behaved' because he was quiet/asleep. Aargh. I want to reach into the radio and shake him! I properly get the rage at the still-perpetuated idea that a baby who doesn't cry & sleeps for long periods (preferably at night) is a 'good' or 'well-behaved' baby. As though newborns were crying for attention or not sleeping through naughtiness. I hate this so much. If I had been Ian, I'd never have got the Jekyll and Hyde line out because of the venom I was directing at Roy.

Also, although he was good to bring up Lexi with Adam and Ian, I think he should have done so a lot more directly. Obviously he's treading a fine line because he feels it's not his place to interfere, but there's no way sleep deprived new parents would pick up that there's anything actually wrong from the very slight hint he gave.

Can't we have storylines about farming?

Lots of people struggle to name a baby. Go over to Baby Names.
I know of RL people who were struggling to find a name for their baby for weeks, the names that they had thought of before the birth no longer felt right.