Fast falls the eventide for Joe Grundy, the darkness deepens for Ed - will he be fenced in or is there still time for acts of pennants? Abide with us and discuss The Archers, thread #104!

[GabrielleNelson]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads and @DadDadDad for being our resident statistician and keeping the ball rolling when Pseudo stepped back a bit and more recently when someone forgot they had promised to start the next thread, ahem.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed. We don't all agree on all points and most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to be Susan's best friend or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please. We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from this thread, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Thanks also to LillianGish for the splendid thread title. As actor Edward Kelsey died last month, we have probably heard Joe Grundy for the last time, or will do very shortly. RIP Mr Kelsey; many thanks for creating a wonderfully vivid character, gnarly toenails and all.

As pointed out on the last thread, we're getting very close now to the 100th birthday of June Spencer, who plays Peggy Woolley. What an achievement! I hope the team manage to squeeze Peggy into that day's episode, come what may.

Kenton owes him money, yes, and I am on David's side

I don't think I'm on either of their sides. David is another entitled whinging git.

Kenton should have posted to MN. "My parents' will leaves the bulk of their £Nm estate to one child, a small share left to each of the other three siblings is locked up in the primary asset so that we can't sell or use it".

That would be a popcorn thread.

I'm quite liking the Freddie redemption storyline and it will be intertwined with CMR's malign influence growing at LL which is a storyline they are going to have to bring to a peak at some point.

I also wonder how much financial trouble Brookfield is in, they made some big purchases last year (milking parlour) before the dry weather hit them, are carrying 3 adult (almost) children and then had a lot of unexpected cost. I think their reserves might be depleted and David is worried about another weather related event (hints of climate change impact on Uk farms storyline?) or Brexit or something sending them over the edge with Kenton spending their reserves. I can't remember if we knew how much the loan was but I have the figure of £35k ish in my head for some reason.

Have the rest of Ambridge gone on a bus trip to Benidorm or something? It's been ages since we heard anything Aldridge, Tucker, Bellamy etc

“Its an interesting contrast in the expectations of young men and women.”

Yep. This.

In the current situation I feel much sorrier for Lily than I do for Freddie.

But I’m fonder of Freddie.

Of course Brookfield can't be allowed to be on an even keel, the 'dramatics' of TA have to apply to BF too.

MyFavouriteCardiganIsCream October 2000 00:00:00

My father inherited a business from his parents and has been running it successfully for many years with support from my mother. My younger brother was the only one of the four of us to want to follow him into the business. He went away to college to do the relevant training and has spent his entire career in the business. He married a woman who did a student placement with them and she ended up working in the business too. Eventually my parents made them both partners so they were effectively gifted a share of the business. Now my parents want to retire and are proposing to hand their share of the business over to my brother and his wife in return for a pension paid from the business profits. There would be a bit of money left to be divided between the other three of us.

My younger sister has married a very wealthy man and they run a business together too. However, she is very upset about our parents' will because she thinks it's a sign they don't love her as much.

My other brother has had to be bailed out of a few financial disasters by my parents and their view is that he has already had his inheritance. My brother, however, doesn't see it like that. He feels our younger brother has had everything handed to him on a plate and our parents' will isn't fair.

I'm not angry with my sister and brother, just disappointed. (I am extremely religious and very close to the vicar.) I am a widow, but well provided for because my grandmother inexplicably left me her cottage. I feel my brother and his wife have earned their inheritance and I have no right anyway to tell our parents what to do with their money.

AIBU to spend a lot of time wringing my hands and looking pious and troubled?

Hahaha. Indeed, cardigan, wring away.

GabrielleNelson

Ecru dahling, surely its ecru!

Yes that is along the lines of what I had in mind.

Then drip feed that t the parents had set the terms to ensure that in the event of divorce SiL couldn't get her scheming mitts on goldenboy's inheritance.

Then that the business was worth millions wherease the bailing out of other sibling who is struggling was worth thousands.

Then taht the "wealthy man" was in fact another business which could also go down the toilet any moment.

Then that in addition to my property inheritance I also had inherited a business and life insurance payouts as a widow.

And so on.

Its so very tempting.

Cardigan I think you could use that as sermon fodder at some time in the future.

It's very tempting and I bet it was done at the time.

Re the business being worth millions - the land value is millions but only if the farm is wound up and the land sold for development (don't know if planning permission would be granted). The income stream from the farm business is surely a lot less. That's why Phil and Jill eventually went for the B shares option. If D&R sell the farm the B shareholders get a proportion of the sale proceeds. Otherwise the B shares are worthless.

Divorce point - wasn't that very shortly after David and Ruth were married? Insulting, yes, but it would be dreadful to see a large chunk of a family business handed over to one's child's ex, rendering said business non-viable. I can understand why they wanted to get the issue into the open. I bet Pat and Tony are anxious about Bridge Farm at the moment.

Also, re LL - that surely could be sold for millions as a home with grounds. Some Russian squillionaire would snap it up and build a helipad on the lawn. Nigel and Elizabeth turned it into a business to generate income that would enable them to carry on living there, which would otherwise have been unaffordable. The Pargetters are far better off than the Archers.

And finally, re Kenton - I think he had to be bailed out with tens of thousands, not just thousands. Also, he's made consistently dreadful life choices. I have no sympathy for him.

It sticks in my craw to be on Shula's side in that debate, but I'm afraid I am.

Re the business being worth millions [...]

Didn't the great move Oop North get offers of a couple of million to buy it as a working farm? Plus they have the option to sell small parcels in for development prices - Pat'n'Tony got a million just for one acre.

I agree the income stream is a different matter. But it does emphasise that fact that three siblings effectively got nothing. David and Ruth have always worked on the farm but have also been paid for it and had accomodation provided (and board, lodging and cars when David lived with Jill and Phil).

Re LL - hard to say. The attractiveness to squillionaires will depend on specific location and ability to knock it about. Might be able to sell it to a hotel/conference chain but the entail will presumably limit their options.

At the moment though, like Brookfield its not generating the income stream and the business historically was built entirely through Elizabeth's graft with support from Nigel. When she married Nigel the place was broke and she had the MiL from hell blocking her from turning it into a business. Of course neither Elizabeth nor Lily have any entitlement to a brass farthing from LL. If Freddie went fully bad or died they would be left with nothing beyond individual items.

Shula can afford to take the view she does - she doesn't need the money, has inheritances of her own and her own business.

Kenton has made many stupid decisions in his life but has worked hard in recent years, running the bar and then with Jolene to maintain a living from a business which is far more parlous than that of the other siblings. If the pub became yet another bust country pub they would leave with about a quarter of the net sale price. Even if his bail out in the past was tens of thousands its peanuts compared to what David and Shula had from the family pot.

He was stupid to book that holiday before the farm sale was final but then David kept insisting they were going and they even had moving dates. For a landlord holiday dates are limited. I can understand why he trusted David and went ahead.

I can give it up any time.

Divorce point - wasn't that very shortly after David and Ruth were married?

No i think it was much later - they already had teh children, as did Shula and Elizabeth. (It may have happened twice - there was also the discussion when Mark talked to Shula about the existing arrangements needing reviewing, thereby pissing off Phil).

I can give it up any time.

Same here. I could walk away tomorrow.

It irks me that the SWs have never bothered to spell out what Kenton's status is in relation to the pub. AFAICR, in the last 35 years The Bull has had the following owners/managers.

Until the 80s Peggy owned it, having previously run it with her first husband Jack Archer, father of Jennifer, Lilian and Tony, and she employed Sid Perks as manager.
Sid married Kathy, they ran the pub together, then bought it from Peggy with help from Guy Pemberton.
Guy died and left his share to his widow, Caroline, who was happy to leave things the way they were.
Sid and Kathy got divorced. Kathy was paid off and enabled to buy April Cottage where she lives with their son Jamie (as far as we know, nobody ever mentions them now, even though Kathy is Pat's best friend ). I think that was because Sid owned another cottage which he sold.
At some point Caroline sold her share so that she and her new husband, Oliver Sterling, could buy Grey Gables. Lilian bought that share and still owns it.
Sid and Jolene got married. Sid died. Jolene and Jamie inherited Sid's share of The Bull, terms unknown (or I've forgotten them). I can't remember if Sid's daughter Lucy got a share as well, but I think not. Jolene is now married to Kenton and they run the pub together.

So the big unanswered questions are - has Jolene put her share in joint names with Kenton? Why do we never hear about Jamie's interest in The Bull? When Jolene dies, will her share go to Kenton, Jamie or Fallon? What about Lucy?

I strongly suspect we'll never get answers to any of that.

Gabrielle that is such a useful summation. I started listening in Sid perks' day and then had a 30 year absence, being young and foolish. recalculates and realises it is more like 40 years

hints of climate change impact

have we had any of that? I can't remember. They've given a bit of lip-service to Brexit, surely they should work a massive existential crisis in too.

I live to serve, Bucking!

grumiosmum, I can't remember either. We've had various green(ish) storylines but I'm not sure about specific references to climate change.

What about Lucy?

I thought that Sid's half was divided 50% to Jolene, 25% each to Lucy and Jamie. But its possible he left more to Jamie as he was younger and Lucy was married in NZ (and female).

Yes Gabrielle Aprox, 2 years ago Adam specifically referred to the 60 maize? harvests that are left if the existing agricultural practices continue hence the herbal leys are in place, I'm not sure why the 'normal' spraying is continuing on Home Farm though.

Wasn't it the second time that Phil and Jill bailed Kenton out to the tune of tens of thousands, in order for him not to be imprisoned in Australia for non-payment of tax, that Phil sold some land to pay for it and Kenton was told he'd had his lot and they reckoned he had spent any inheritance he might have been going to get from them? It was after his illegal venture into business shortly after he left the merchant navy, when he and his partner didn't bother to get the necessary certificates to sell foreign stock, and Kenton kept out of prison in this country by a whisker with Securities Investment Board breathing down his neck; I think Phil and Jill bailed him out of that one as well.

The money Jolene borrowed from the Archer family for The Bull was half of the £52,000 needed to pay for repairs to "historic damage" to the foundations, which had to be done before their insurance would pay out for the rest of the repairs after the flood damage. Lilian paid her half, but Kenton had "maxed out all our cards" on their holiday and the bank wouldn't help them, so Shula and Elizabeth lent Jolene/The Bull £4000 each and Jill another I think it was £2000, and the rest came from Brookfield -- not David, or David-and-Ruth, but the business. That was in November 2015.

Not paying it back before June 2017 when Jolene set up the standing order or direct debit or whatever it was when David started to lose patience about it was iffy, and Kenton stopping the standing order last December and not bothering even to mention that he had to David was definitely wrong. I'd be hopping mad if my brother did something like that to me. (I would have started to lose patience when Kenton bought his new car in December 2016 and the debt wasn't being paid back, really.)

Oh and Kathy is often mentioned in relation to her job as shared manager with Roy of GG (never Jamie though).

Am endlessly frustrated that Pat and Tony and David and Ruth sings in about either hard work or difficult decisions when their assets are apparently so huge. Flog them farms and buy a cottage with a big garden for your goat .sit back and relax.

Not much of a plot admittedly

C8H10N4O2
I thought that Sid's half was divided 50% to Jolene, 25% each to Lucy and Jamie. But its possible he left more to Jamie as he was younger and Lucy was married in NZ (and female).

On 16th July, 2010, Lilian came back from seeing Sid's will at the solicitor's and told Lilian that there were no surprises in it because she saw it when he made it: Lilian asked, "Does everything come to you?" and Jolene said, "Yeah. Such as it is. Our share of the pub, except for some shares for Jamie when he's eighteen and, well, there's a bit of money to go to Lucy."

(I have recordings. That day is one of them...)

I lose sympathy with Kenton because we as listeners hear his true attitude, eg when he finally agreed to paying for a professional photographer for Jolene, he was dismissive of the debt to David - that debt will always be a lower priority, partly because he thinks David and Ruth have the farm and are financially well-off (whereas in fact, cashflow is a bit more precarious).

David won't know that's what Kenton's thinks but he has a pretty good sense that the above is Kenton's attitude, and I can understand him losing his temper. Maybe Jill could pause to think why normally placid David has lost his temper - it surely reveals that he is under financial strain.

David must have noticed Kenton was driving a gurt new 4x4 while he (or possibly just Jolene, or The Bull) owed David (or possibly Brookfield) thousands of pounds. I bet it rankled.