The Archers - Freddie is getting OUT: will Russ hop it? Helen is falling DOWN: is Lee still in the frame? Tom is heading UP: will Natasha be the boost his sausage needs? (Thread no. 101

[DadDadDad]

We're still here and still discussing TA (The Archers). We welcome newcomers and old hands, so if you have a question or a point of view, please dive in. No spoilers - if you've seen info on future storylines, there's a separate Radio Addicts thread for that.

I loved all the name changes on the last thread. Don't forget to change back! (If you want to).

Who's going to get Russ out of LL? Freddie? Lily? Elizabeth? Or is it Freddie who will head off?

Spoiled. Hopefully no one was spiked!

I thought the Chris look was mostly around curiosity, because Chris isn't so up on village news these days, so may not have understood Leonard was sufficiently part of things to be at the Christening. Either that, or she has heard other things at the Laurels about Leonard that we don't yet know, and she hasn't told Jill, because she didn't think they were that serious.

Jill is also anti-Fairbrother because of Robin and Elizabeth. I think she'd have got past Grace if no Fairbrother appeared in Ambridge to stir things up every few decades.

I think Jill was more hurt that Pip hadn't told her about the name than the name itself.

I don’t know who Chris’ brother was
Sorry.
Dan Archer had three children. Phil, Jack and Christine. Phil married Grace Fairbrother then Jill. Jack married Peggy. So Christine, Peggy and Jill are all sisters-in-law.

“I think Jill was more hurt that Pip hadn't told her about the name than the name itself.”
As she had every right to be. And as it was Toby who wanted the name it was outrageous that he lied to Pip about telling her then did that ridiculous coughing thing to try to cover his arse.

Chris was Phil's sister - no more unreasonable for her to be giving Jill a look (whatever that means - probably just having a good look at him) than for Jill to be bearing a grudge about someone Phil was married to before they met (it's not as if she and Grace were ever rivals for his affection or anything like that). I'd probably be having a good look if my brother turned up a family event with a new woman. I just find the whole Grace storyline such a storm in a teacup. The idea of Jill's existing family being slightly reticent about suddenly welcoming a new man into the fold after her lifetime with Phil is far easier to believe, but apart from Chris's "look", no-one else has really batted an eyelid.

I actually think that the not telling Jill thing was quite a good illustration of the me me me nature and immaturity of both Pip and Toby. I think it’s quite possible that Pip vaguely knows that Jill has a lingering jealousy of Grace but she has no real concept of how deep it runs (possibly because Jill has only confided that to a few people, and maybe not even to Ruth and David). Pip has next to no interest in feeling empathy for others and has probably never thought to probe Jill a bit more about the past. Like her parents, she is totally lacking in perception when it comes to being sensitive to how people are feeling. (Josh is the same, Ben is much better in that regard).
Toby is this times 100. Nothing in life is serious to him, not even having a baby. He simply can’t fathom why a silly old woman would care about such a thing and treats it all as a huge joke, with no compunction whatsoever about obfuscating and lying and nonsense stunts like coughing. Anything to avoid a serious conversation.

Pip should never have agreed to the name in the first place. That said, it is all just a nonsense plot device as (in keeping with the above) I don’t think Toby gives a toss about Fairbrother family pride, his late (half-Aunt?) or what his father wants (other than to keep him off his back). So it’s unrealistic that he’d have insisted on the name at all, or at the very least he could have compromised on some other Fairbrother female name.

Pip has such a close relationship with her grandmother who is often left in charge of Rosie. It is inconceivable that Pip wouldn't have discussed the name with her - even if she had found it difficult. If she knew how sensitive jill would be about the name, she certainly wouldn't have sent a Fairbrother to break the news. Another contrivance to engineer a feeble plot twist.

But Pip knew enough to know it was potentially sensitive for Jill, and was all too keen to take Toby up on his offer to tell her. She must have known Toby's evasive replies meant he hadn't told Jill, but she didn't make much effort to follow that up.

My "but" was in response to Jessie. I agree with you, Lillian, except I'm not sure it is inconceivable that Pip would have avoided the discussion of the middle names - surely, it's consistent with her character that she would avoid such a topic because she would have felt uncomfortable about bringing it up.

That said, it is all just a nonsense plot device
Isn't it just.
For all Jill's going on and on and on about faaaaaamily, have we ever heard her mention a peep about her side of the family? In fact I had to google to find her maiden name because I don't think that I have ever heard it (Patterson, in case you were wondering).

Far more interesting than the fabricated Jill/Grace rivalry is Shula's apparent crisis of faith. This seems to have been coming for a long time - there have been many discussions on here about her actions not always chiming with her Smugula persona. Having been called out on it by Jim and then Alistair what happened yesterday feels like a natural development. It should have been a glorious moment for her - centre stage at the christening of God-daughter's baby - but she bottled it. She doesn't want anyone to know why - making pretence of feeling faint - but Jim, Alistair and also we the listeners know what that was all about. I wonder what the SWs have in store for Shula?

Women’s Hour this morning looking at the female characters in The Archers, fresh from the conference...

No need for R4 and thanks for the explanation. Just the fact that you described them as SIL will probably help me to remember it. The wiki entry doesn’t join the family trees up and the references to Dan are quite abstract to me because I have no memory of him, or even Phil, to be honest, although I must have heard quite a lot of Phil, albeit mostly when the archers was just background noise for me. The R4 website it utterly unhelpful, for instance it describes Peggy’s relationship to Jill as “friend”.

I seem to remember that Pip, rather unpleasantly and not very credibly, called Jill out on her jealously of Grace during the early stages of her relationship to Toby, when Jill was unwilling to accept Toby. So she knew well enough that she should have spoke to Jill about the name. I wouldn’t describe any of the family as having close relationships though - they spend a lot of time together but they don’t talk about anything related to feelings until it reaches crisis point.

I felt sorry for Shula.

Why are you “butting” me DDD? That was exactly my point- Pip does know that Jill has an issue but she is too self-absorbed (and too keen to keep her own life simple and confrontation-free) to talk to her about it properly.

"For all Jill's going on and on and on about faaaaaamily, have we ever heard her mention a peep about her side of the family?"

I don't think there is one. I think she was an orphan brought up by a childless aunt. Wasn't that why she was so pleased about marrying into the enormous Archer clan, and feels so strongly about them?

She has never minded Rex, so it isn't all Fairbrothers that she can't stand. She did say right from the start that Toby reminded her of his father, and Robin was the one who had an affair with Elizabeth in May 1987 when he was thirty-four and she was twenty, and turned out to be married and not separated at all and dumped Elizabeth when she was getting fond of him. Rex was born in July 1987, so Robin's wife must have been obviously pregnant when he had his fling with Elizabeth, too: he was a complete stinker. I bet Jill can count on her fingers as well as anyone, and she knows when Rex was born relative to Robin messing about with Jill's daughter.

she is too self-absorbed (and too keen to keep her own life simple and confrontation-free) to talk to her about it properly.
And, despite the multiple incidents that should scream DON'T TRUST HIM TO DO ANYTHING, she trusted Toby to tell Jill.

And, despite ... she trusted Toby to tell Jill.
Pah! This is the woman who wouldn't fess up to IBR, who had Toby scurrying around the farmyard in the dark rather than let on that they were in a relationship.
Pip was never going to have the guts to tell Jill.

Agreed!

Delurking (and slightly derailing the thread) to say I miss Lillian!

And I miss Lynda, where are they both?

I wish someone would tell the Jill actor to stop doing that slightly frantic giggle all the time when talking to Leonard. It's not as if it's ever in response to anything funny anyway.

How did I not know this thread (and its predecessors) existed?! Mumsnet and the Archers.....COMBINED.

I am in heaven.

Welcome blackfriars!

I don't think there is one. I think she was an orphan brought up by a childless aunt.

I feel the need to protest on behalf of her aunt! Surely she must have counted as family, if she brought Jill up?

But it’s true that the SWs are woefully bad at remembering the existence of non-Ambridge based family. I know they only have 12 minutes but these exclusions make characters seem weirdly isolated, and Ambridge worryingly cut off from the rest of the world.

Welcome blackfriars! And all other new posters on this thread.

Was the conference last weekend? Where are all your updates peeps???

The conference finished lunchtime yesterday.

BOOP for Leonard. That ones a keeper Jill - not least for respecting Jill’s wish for some time alone.