Thefts, arson and abuse: The Archers - it's an everyday story of cuntery, folks.

[PseudoBadger]

Thanks to Lancelottie for the title

Surely Helen only has to say "he hit me" or "he raped me" and Pat would be on side.

I would imagine if she said those words to Tony if she could find him then he would believe her.

Smallegs I'm in no way meaning to diminish your experience or say that rape within marriage is a matter of opinion. I understand and I've been there too.

I'm just trying to point out more scriptwriting inconsistencies. Please let's not start disagreeing over the legitimacy of rape allegations just because there are some serious discrepancies in this storyline.

Eighteen years ago this week I was sitting with a new born and sporting a black eye that had been gifted to me while I was in labour. This SL is a good thing for many (eg the woman on Woman's Hour who got up the strength to recognise her situation after listening to TA) but I'm finding it impossible to listen to.

I would imagine if she said those words to Tony if she could find him then he would believe her.

I thought that but didn't want to voice it. I shall be extremely pissed off if Helen is rescued from one man by another. I lost all respect for her (not that I ever had any) when she was telling Jess about how, when she was younger, she dreamed of marrying a man who would 'look after her'.
How did Pat the Feminist produce such a wet lettuce.

And she can't do the usual and lay the blame on the trauma of John's death. She said the 'dreaming' was while she was at school.

R4 my dd spends all her time dreaming of being a princess sadly a feminist mother is not the only influence is this Disney infested world. She shall grow out of it.

Eighteen years ago this week I was sitting with a new born and sporting a black eye that had been gifted to me while I was in labour.
CUP that is appalling. Who can do that to someone at such a vulnerable time.
But Happy Birthday to your DC.

One of my DDs spent a lot of her time between 2 and 6 wafting around in pink princess and fairy dresses. At 17 she is strongly feminist.
Actually I can't remember Helen going through this phase. I do remember her not being a bridesmaid to Shula because she'd hate to dress up in a frilly dress, she was a jodhpurs type girl.

CUP and what SmallLegs said!

Yes, I think you're being a bit harsh on Helen re: that line. Cultural etc stereotypes can be hard to overcome. Surely most of us ladies have enjoyed thoughts of Mr Darcy or Hugh Jackman's Wolverine etc - the strong alpha male type. "being looked after" could mean all sorts of things.

That sounds harsh R4. Every little girl is fed a diet of nursery tales and Disney films in which beautiful princesses are rescued and looked after by handsome princes. I don't suppose Helen actively maintained that dream after childhood (her cheese empire and decision to have Henry suggest otherwise) but falling stupidly in love with Rob - an apparently strong and capable man, so very different to Greg - reminded her of those childhood dreams. I don't think she was planning on giving up her job and her income - she wanted someone equally strong and capable.

Thinking of princess stories I took great delight in the 80's in buying my nieces a book called Princess Smartypants (I think) by Babette Cole (I think) which turns the whole soppy princess searching for her handsome prince story on it's head.

for everyone on here for whom this story is rekindling painful memories or reflecting their current lives. It must be very painful listening.

D'you think the editorial team understood just how deep and widespread the effect of this story would be? SOC classed TA listeners as "middle England" - I wonder if they assumed that it would be pure entertainment for solid, happily married retired couples.

AnnieNoMouse, thank you so much for that Lowfield link, I've had another look and refreshed my memory. Until this point, I hadn't realised that there was probably a third woman on the scene in February 2014.
I agree with CUP about the bodging of the script to tie up the obvious inconsistencies. Still can't move on from BHC developing a third bedroom and Keri Davies's reaction to same!
to all of you for whom this is bringing back bad memories and for those of you might be living some form of it at the moment. I have second-hand experience as we are just realising how badly our own child was emotionally abused and controlled by an ex who dumped her, and is only now, over a year later, having counselling for it.
Personally, I have always been convinced by Jess and I was never a fan of the smooth-talking Rob who lied to his wife and Helen from the very start. I thought the party with the salmon was crucial and felt very sorry for Jess from then on, and had already been pissed off with Rob before that when he was trying to escape living in Ambridge because of Helen. I have just started listening again (backwards) after I used the iplayer for Friday's episode and was gripped by the Helen and Jess meeting, which I thought was very well done. (Ruth's cackles and Bert's oxo cube, notsomuch.)

The birth will be the catalyst - rob won't be able to cope with the lack of control he has and that's when his temper comes out. Attempting to control a woman in labour in any way shape or form is abusive (yes Tom, even if you are a scientologist)

Jess was a mistake because they didn't know where they were going when they wrote those early scenes. i can't understand how a controlling man would have let his wife be apart from him for so long. How did he allow Jess to keep her job when he got Helen out of hers pretty fast. When she arrived, why did he let her make the decision that they would live in ambridge? She made quite a few fundamental decisions that he would never have allowed Helen to make - even pre pregnancy.

Why was Jess so determined to have rob the dad (birth announcement/child maintenance) when there was a chance he wasn't and she could escape him (this was after all months after she had last seen him and after she had seen her tiny little baby etc etc)

Rather than rewriting history they would be better keeping her input to the minimum - perhaps as a witness in the upcoming case (I assume she falls outside the period to be able to prosecute him for ea?).

Valentine's was a Friday that year so very odd he had to be away at a conference. Maybe he was just visiting his mummy

So Hellin thinks it will improve when the baby is born?

I can totally identify with this
He will be more committed once we get married
He will be better once we move nearer to home and family
He will be home more once we have a baby (actually started the overt abuse then)
He will be more caring and less selfish now the baby is here
He will be less volatile with a different job

And so on, and no nothing changed it always got worse.

Hellin is kidding herself just like so many abused women kid themselves.

I am now free and Hellin needs to see this is the only option.

Knowing something and understanding something are completely different.
Before I was hit, I knew I would always leave immediately if someone hit me.
In reality when he did, then he cried and apologised I believed him.
Sleep Repeat.
When he left - I still loved him.
It took me 2 years to realise exactly who he was.
As for inconsistencies it took a few years before my x made me give up my job.
When he re-married his poor wife had to give up her job very quickly.

Sorry - on a happier note his second wife left him

Why was Jess so determined to have rob the dad

Money for the bairn & her turn to chip away at him (control him).

I don't expect Knob was as horrid to Jess. Someone in DH's family was abusive to Wife 1 (DV) but his 2nd Wife put him in his place, slapped him down verbally quite often, etc. He was probably still an arse to live with, but not nightmare like he was to gentle Wife1 (DV with W1). I suppose the dynamics worked differently, not the fault of Wife1, obviously.

I suppose it limits the SLs too much if we expect characters to be consistent. I don't remember Pat ever seeming very feminist or against private schools, for anyway.

With their lack of money, how did the Grundies hold onto that bit of land thru everything else, the filed where they raise turkeys & keep the cart-pulling animal.

BYOSnowman - my theory about Rob and Jess is that he was probably just as controlling as he was with Helen before she became pregnant - it's really since the pregnancy that it's become so terrifying. We never really heard much from Jess on the subject. The main difference between Helen and Jess is that H was already a mum so, in Rob's mind, shouldn't be working/wearing revealing dresses/seeing her friends etc. He didn't have a good enough reason to stop Jess from working, which probably saved her. Jess did say he "always wanted a son".

Listening to the omnibus... I want Dorothy to fall under a bus. Or maybe turn out to be the lovechild of a Drugs Lord Baron married to a Russian Oligarch, or move to the village & have simultaneous sex affairs with Joe Grundy, Kate Aldridge AND Freddy Partridger.

I think it is still just sw inconsistencies!! I'd almost rather not have then try to shoe horn Jess back I beyond a minor supporting role to his prosecution

Isn't the point of abusive men that they don't need a good reason?

When she turned up on Valentine's and said 'rob doesn't like to take no for an answer' - at that point there was no indication he had raped Helen by that point so there would be no reason for her to get any implication there

am listening to the omnibus now and absolutely shaking with anger. nothing less than the ritual disemboweling and crucifixion of Knob on the village green is going to satisfy me now!

I didn't mean that he needed a reason! Just that Jess could be Helen now if she'd become pregnant. Helen kept some semblance of a working life up until the pregnancy didn't she? Even when he was trying to convince her otherwise? Didn't Jess say to Helen that night something about H finding out "what kind of man he is"? But Jess only now seems to realise that she had a lucky escape. She said herself that she didn't know who she was during the marriage.

"If you hadn't come along, by now there'd be nothing of me left ". And we saw that at the house-warming party.