Mice infestation - how to reflect in price / sale negotiations?

[Weneednewnames]

I'm buying a property that has thrown up a few issues, one of which is mice infestation. It's a bigger problem than I realised, minimum £10k to address it (but potentially much higher if there's electrical damage). I'm not willing to pay to eradicate a long-standing problem that long predates this purchase. How do I address this in negotiations?

Sorry this is so long!!!

The property was advertised at £375, and had lots of interest. It's a probate, currently empty. After a best & final process my offer of £390k was accepted. This says a lot about the desirability of the property as our local market is very slow right now.

I had a Level 3 survey which found extensive rodent infestation and then a pest control survey. I used a company that were recommended to me by a friend who found they were the only company that eradicated an embedded rat infestation in her property. In my case it's mice, not rats (good news) but it is very well established with "vast" evidence in loft and other evidence in kitchen (bad news).

The quote for fully dealing with this is massive - £400 for the extermination but 4k for identifying and sealing all entry points and 5k for loft cleaning, including clearing the infested insulation. Then another £2.5k to lay new insulation. The cost for removing insulation is high is because a) it's a massive loft (bungalow), b) has vermiculite insulation as well as standard fibreglass - huge pain to removek and c) is sodden with decades' worth of rodent urine and faeces (yuck). Further complication is that vermiculite insulation may contain asbestos. It's unlikely that it IS asbestos, but if it is, the removal needs to be specialist and will add another £15k to the cost because the loft is massive and there is a huge amount of it

What do I now? There are two options - which is either that the sellers deal with it before exchange, or that I do it after completion and it is reflected in the price.

If before exchange, I very much doubt that the sellers want to pay £10k for rodent treatment. However, without removing the infested insulation it's impossible to assess damage to electrical wiring, as this is laid below the insulation. AND the insulation needs to be tested for asbestos (£500).

If we wait til completion, I can't fully assess the risk & damage, and as I have pets who can't be in property during the treatment (and because I'm not willing to move while the infestation is in kitchen etc) then I would have to stay in my current rental for a couple of months til it's dealt with, which adds more costs and more time.

What is the best way forward here? Both options have massive costs - if sellers do it is £10k upfront, even I I cover the costs of laying new insulation. If I do it, the full cost, with new insulation and two months more in rented accommodation, is likely closer to £20k even if there is no electrical damage. That seems an absolutely massive price reduction for mice. But I don't want to accept a mouse-infested property!!

What do I do? How do I word the email to the EA? I am willing to walk away over it - the property also needs lots of other things done and my budget definitely cannot accommodate an extra 20k-40k for rodents.

(Also - yes, I could get other quotes and this could definitely be worth doing for the loft insulation clearance, but the extermination & proofing work (£5k) I strongly want to do with this firm since they seem to have the best chance of actually solving the problem. And the loft clearance is a big job - huge amount of vermiculite, rodent infested boards, rodent infested fibreglass insulation. So even a cheaper firm might only save £1-2k in best scenario).

I'd be walking away from this one.

Are you sure you definitely want the mouse house?

Hahaha yes I think I do want the mouse house. The rodent company are confident that they can get rid of (most of) them through the plan they've identified which seems really comprehensive and has already identified lots of access points to address.

I'm just not willing to pay for it since it is wholly the result of the sellers' neglect of it (they knew there were mice, EA let slip when I said I was relieved it wasn't rats, as then I would have been walking away - "oh yes, they said it was mice".....)

What kind of price negotiation is reasonable here?

If it’s going to cost 10 grand just sort it all out and you’ve got quotations to prove that they’re gonna need to pay that whoever buys it then it’s 10 grand do you want off the asking price? That’s not an unreasonable suggestion.

Agree with a pp. If it's going to cost £10k then word it like this

"I have had estimates for the rodent issues that it will cost £10k to remedy and am therefore asking you to accept my reduced offer of £380k to accommodate this"

@Dollysleftnip it's a bit more complicated than that - the eradication and clearance really needs to be done before exchange so that I can assess the electrical wiring.

If it's done after completion then the cost to me is potentially much higher than £10k as hidden costs with wiring. Real cost is over £20k, but also lots of time and stress. (£10k rodents + loft clearance, £3k extra rent, £2.5k new insulation, AND possible electrical faults needing rewiring (cost?? up to £10k?)

Agghhh maybe it IS more stress than it's worth.

So you need a miniumn 20k reduction.

There is no point imo getting the current owners to do it, because they have no interest in the actual job so are likely to cut corners to save money

Rewire even in the south-east is not £10,000. There’s a guy on Instagram who does completely rewires on video while we all watch. He charges about four grand for a typical four bedroom semi.
Just don’t overdo the pudding and you’ll get what you ask for 10 grand reasonable 20s taking the piss

Don’t buy this house. Others will come up with same issue unless they buy without survey

@Dollysleftnip i agree that 20k sounds like taking the piss, of course it does - but that is likely to be the true cost to me. So that feels like what I need to ask for (bearing in mind lots of other things also need doing - roof repairs, new boiler, updating throughout.). And it’s not that I thought I was buying a house that needs gutted, it looks like a very well maintained and livable property - dated but definitely not rodent infested. So it’s not a case where I should have expected these costs.

Maybe splitting difference at £15k sounds more reasonable but I still don’t think they’ll want to do it. I suppose all I can do then is walk away.

I think sadly you need to walk away from this. You can’t risk spending money before exchange and in the circumstances I don’t think I’d feel comfortable that the sellers would do the amount of work required!

The sellers will not do the work now. They have had plenty of other interest from other parties to go back to.

You've explained at great length to all of Mumsnet why the quote is high. Go back to the sellers Agent with all of that detail. Put together all the pertinent points and clauses from the survey and quote in one email (you don't have to give them they survey and/or quote itself, they belong to you).

End your email with "as you will appreciate, I now need to reduce my offer by £x thousand pounds to cover the very high cost of remedying this significant issue within the structure of the property. Could you please now put this forward to your clients and I look forward to hearing from you once you have their instructions."

Ask for the 20k off. You may not get it, but you definitely wont if you don't ask. But make sure you explain in detail why, with costs.
Remember, you are 15k over the asking price, so you are effectively asking for 5k. What is thecleast off that you would fond acceptable?

Sorry, I haven’t read the entire thread but o would assume that if there was Aspestos in the house the dust would be everywhere. Could you ask a reputable Aspestos removal company to preform tests and do a report? Chances are you will have to pay several grand for removal and rewire the electrics and possibly redo the plumbing as well.
DH and I are close to finishing a massive renovation project. It has worked out really well because we have a brilliant company managing the entire thing and we went into it with eyes open. Aspestos removal is very pricey - so make sure to get quotes before you exchange or budget carefully!

Given that they never treated a massive mouse infestation what else might they have neglected?

But yes this issue will come up with every purchaser

The answer is you don’t word the email your solicitor does, they’re used to dealing with these issues. What does your solicitor advise?

It’s fine to ask the seller to carry out the work prior to exchange. But safer to do the work yourself as they may botch it by doing it on the cheap.

Post survey reductions are normal.

Do you have plenty of other funds to deal with other issues? A mouse problem this big on a probate property indicates there may be other unseen issues.

Have you gone round with the builder? That can be more useful than a survey.

Two options

1. walk away
2. get £20k reduction and do the work yourself. And pray there is nothing else. Rodents will come back to where they know, so you need to have a good job done and the property completely mouse tight

Walk away and buy a different house.

It’s a buyers market at the moment. Most buyers are getting great deals for £20-40k below asking price, not offering over.

Well ofc a company will claim they're confident they can get rid of the infestation - they're getting 10k! Reality is rodents (and are you sure its mice rather than rats) are very very hard to deal with. Walk away!

this is one I would be walking away from however desirable it could end up a total money pit with new kitchen etc plus the risk of asbestos i think it will just end up more and more problems

I don’t think the seller is going to do the work.

I think I would ask for a reduction for the known issue- the mice- to be deducted now. And then ask your solicitor to suggest a mechanism whereby some of your purchase price is retained by them to cover potential future works to the electrics etc. If the work needs doing you can then use the retained amount to cover it, if things are fine it gets paid over to the seller.

Be aware though that if its a sought after house they may just decide to put it back on the market in the hope that someone will offer who can either do it themselves or won’t care (e.g a builder who would probably be ripping stuff out anyway). And you are unlikely to get every penny paid over- for example I think I might draw the line at paying for a rental for you unless it was actually impossible to live in the house- I’d see this as part of your choice to proceed.

re asbestos you should get the material tested for asbestos asap

The sellers are never going to do that sort of extensive and expensive work before exchange because you could simply walk away for any reason. They haven’t necessarily got access to funds - the value of the probate may be overwhelmingly in the property. If they put it back on the market, where there was interest before, they may well get a buyer who is planning to refit out the roof as a useable room or put in a dormer and make a full loft conversion so all the problems with the mouse infestation up there will go. Or a buyer who has a very superficial survey. The EA comment about the mice may have just referred to them knowing there was some trace evidence in the kitchen.

You could ask for money off, to continue with the sale, based on the survey - they aren’t in the forward buying process and you offered more than the asking so psychologically they would still be financially up on what they had expected but £20k based on one quote is unlikely.

I sold my mother’s house which was in good condition apart from a small and oddly designed conservatory that had been neglected . It was priced very much to sell, was empty when put on the market, with the need for attention to the conservatory and a new kitchen obvious. . The buyer then asked for a large reduction for repairs to the conservatory which I refused as I knew that the first thing anyone would do would be to take down said conservatory, reconfigure the back, expand the kitchen and put on a much larger extension as every single house in the road had done. He then proceeded on the original offer price and did exactly the work I had anticipated plus more - it was the location and the big garden that was the appeal.

OP, walk away.
There will be many other issues that haven’t shown up yet.

yes, you have a comp at promising to sort it, doesn’t mean they will do so comprehensively or that they won’t cause or uncover other issues. Wiring as you state.

This sounds like a property for somebody that has the funds to fully renovate whilst not living onsite.

@Boutonnière The sellers are never going to do that sort of extensive and expensive work before exchange because you could simply walk away for any reason

Not true. Selling an actively infested property can cut value (eg up to 20%) and cause mortgage lenders to refuse loans. They may refuse to lend until it’s resolved. Sellers will have the same problem with any buyer.

This being a probate sale complicates things - do the executors have the funds upfront to do the work? It would come out of the estate in the long run.

The sellers either do the work to ease sales or reduce the price. But their buyer pool would be smaller and they will have to take what they can get. If they end up doing the work OP should ensure she gets invoices and certificates etc.

But as I said in my pp - if this is indicative of the state of the property - does OP have significant funds for this and other renovations?