Mice infestation - how to reflect in price / sale negotiations?

[Weneednewnames]

I'm buying a property that has thrown up a few issues, one of which is mice infestation. It's a bigger problem than I realised, minimum £10k to address it (but potentially much higher if there's electrical damage). I'm not willing to pay to eradicate a long-standing problem that long predates this purchase. How do I address this in negotiations?

Sorry this is so long!!!

The property was advertised at £375, and had lots of interest. It's a probate, currently empty. After a best & final process my offer of £390k was accepted. This says a lot about the desirability of the property as our local market is very slow right now.

I had a Level 3 survey which found extensive rodent infestation and then a pest control survey. I used a company that were recommended to me by a friend who found they were the only company that eradicated an embedded rat infestation in her property. In my case it's mice, not rats (good news) but it is very well established with "vast" evidence in loft and other evidence in kitchen (bad news).

The quote for fully dealing with this is massive - £400 for the extermination but 4k for identifying and sealing all entry points and 5k for loft cleaning, including clearing the infested insulation. Then another £2.5k to lay new insulation. The cost for removing insulation is high is because a) it's a massive loft (bungalow), b) has vermiculite insulation as well as standard fibreglass - huge pain to removek and c) is sodden with decades' worth of rodent urine and faeces (yuck). Further complication is that vermiculite insulation may contain asbestos. It's unlikely that it IS asbestos, but if it is, the removal needs to be specialist and will add another £15k to the cost because the loft is massive and there is a huge amount of it

What do I now? There are two options - which is either that the sellers deal with it before exchange, or that I do it after completion and it is reflected in the price.

If before exchange, I very much doubt that the sellers want to pay £10k for rodent treatment. However, without removing the infested insulation it's impossible to assess damage to electrical wiring, as this is laid below the insulation. AND the insulation needs to be tested for asbestos (£500).

If we wait til completion, I can't fully assess the risk & damage, and as I have pets who can't be in property during the treatment (and because I'm not willing to move while the infestation is in kitchen etc) then I would have to stay in my current rental for a couple of months til it's dealt with, which adds more costs and more time.

What is the best way forward here? Both options have massive costs - if sellers do it is £10k upfront, even I I cover the costs of laying new insulation. If I do it, the full cost, with new insulation and two months more in rented accommodation, is likely closer to £20k even if there is no electrical damage. That seems an absolutely massive price reduction for mice. But I don't want to accept a mouse-infested property!!

What do I do? How do I word the email to the EA? I am willing to walk away over it - the property also needs lots of other things done and my budget definitely cannot accommodate an extra 20k-40k for rodents.

(Also - yes, I could get other quotes and this could definitely be worth doing for the loft insulation clearance, but the extermination & proofing work (£5k) I strongly want to do with this firm since they seem to have the best chance of actually solving the problem. And the loft clearance is a big job - huge amount of vermiculite, rodent infested boards, rodent infested fibreglass insulation. So even a cheaper firm might only save £1-2k in best scenario).

We (I'm an electrician) can inspect all the cable runs (we clear insulation to check them and put it back)

If it was wired to the regs (any version), being a bungalow the cable drops in the walls will run down in conduit or capping and be out of Mr Mouse's way.

Mice seem to like some cables better than other, presumably because of the texture of the plastic, and tend to chew along the neutral side, hence getting away with it.

We can also test the insulation resistance, even if there is no dead short damage shows up as low resistance.

Where mice are just part of the picture, as they are in the countryside in old buildings, we tend to re-wire with either steel conduit, steel wire armour or pyrotenax cable, all of which are fully rat and mouse proof.

Insulation wise, fibreglass they love to burrow and nest in, and it can become rather sodden with pee.

Vermiculite (which is a granular loose fill) is a very superior material as it dries out naturally and you can shift it easily to do work and can easily see mouse activity. I re-insulated my loft with vermiculite about 5 years ago.

Walk away unless the sellers will fix before they sell. This could cost any amount. There is no guarantee that the first or second or third treatment will be enough to get rid of your free-loading lodgers and without knowing how long it will take, you've no idea on cost.

Thanks all @DeftWasp it’s really helpful to hear from a professional. The reason for removing the vermiculite is because it is soaked in mouse scent, to stop them coming back. But helpful to know that it’s not a big deal from an electricians perspective.

You are right that it’s stressing me out though and I think the sellers are trying to encourage me to walk away by making it difficult to get access for inspections. I’ve not told them about the 10k costs yet or asked for money off but suspect they can see it might be coming.

The issues with the house are:

• mice
• possible bats (not showing inside loft but seller told my surveyor that they are present so maybe roosting behind cladding)
• roof repairs needed (survey says urgent, could affect insurability, roof is obviously sagging in one place). This needs quotes, could be manageable but sellers being awkward about access. Bats could be problem here
• asbestos present in loads of places, some might need removed. Survey needed but sellers refusing access for a full survey.
• injected cavity wall insulation, probably a non issue but sellers saying can’t do further investigation until after completion

That is in addition to a full refurb of internal decor including a new boiler and radiators, flooring, doors etc

The sellers obviously think I’ve got the house at a good price and now need to take it without further exploration / clarification on costs. I just can’t afford to do that. It’s possible the asbestos is a non issue, that the mice can be got rid of, and that the roof can be fairly cheaply while waiting for a bigger job in 3-5 years time. But any of these could also be a much bigger job that could add a lot of extra costs. I do have a budget for renovations but it isn’t enough to absorb those costs.

So it looks like it will be an end to the sale and I am feeling more relieved than sad. Thank for you for all the advice!

You’re paying £15k over asking anyway?

ask for £15k reduction

Whoa! If there are potentially bats roosting in the roof then it's a walk away. Bats are legally protected in the UK and it's a criminal offence to capture, harm or kill them. You also are not allowed to disturb or destroy their resting places.

With regards to the mice, it's no good a pest controller saying they think they can get rid of "most" of the. Mice are prolific breeders and if they're not eradicated entirely you'll be back to square one in no time. If this house is part of probate, and hasn't been renovated for years, then I'd think a rewire would be necessary whether the mice have nibbled it or not.

I'd strongly recommend you ask the sellers to sort it as a condition of sale. Any buyer will pick up on the problem and most wojld walk away. So they are fortunate you are still interested
But do not offer a lower price because you simply don't know the extent of the problem. So tell the vendor that you want this company to sort it and you want a report from them when it's resolved to confirm what's done. Or else you walk away. They will agree as they have basically no choice !

In 20 years in the electrical trade I have encountered only two properties that needed a re-wire. New consumer unit, new accessories, the odd cable run sure, but its rare these days to find somewhere with cable so old it actually needs replacing in its entirety.

I'm with you on the bats and mice though - mice, very difficult to fully eradicate unless you can stop them getting in/out and bats are going to make everything more difficult still.

I think you have hit the nail on the head that you can't really be sure how bad any of this could be.

The mice can likely be resolved, but probably not quickly.

The Bats would be a big concern for me as they will make other repairs to the roof impossible without a lot of fuss

A sagging roof can be something or nothing, you really need to know the cause, my roof has a sag, result of a builder in the 60s being a bit economical with timber - that said an extra timber inside means it won't go any further, problem solved. Do you know why it's sagging?

Asbestos is generally not a problem if left alone, but if you have to pay for its removal it is an expensive business.

Injected cavity wall insulation can cause issues, especially if it has got wet - my concern would be if you have mice heavily active in the loft, then the wall cavities could have them in too, with more urine laden fibreglass - that won't dry out on its own and could attract them back if they can still get in. You shouldn't have any cables in the cavities by rights, but some builders did drop cables down the cavity, it was never permitted in the regs, but I'd want to know one way or the other.

It sounds like the costs, and disruption could spiral - its one of those things, if you have the money and can stand the agro, and love the house - then I'd buy it and tear the place apart sorting everything (bats permitting)

But as you say its a bungalow, I'm guessing we are not talking about an architectural gem, a one off, just another house - so I'd be tempted to walk unless the price is great and you can stomach the work.

As its a probate sale they do have a choice, there won't be any great urgency to sell as it's not part of a chain or the sellers onward move. The executor has a duty to get as much as they can, they will possibly have had a red book valuation and if they are a professional executor won't move significantly from that.

That's one of the issues with buying from probate, you are in effect dealing with a trustee, the executor, not the owner, and that executor is often under the microscope of the beneficiaries and professional obligations.

Even if you are walking away, I would give them as much information as you have about the mouse infestation / quote for work and risk to the electrics - most old / neglected houses would need rewiring anyway. That then gives them the opportunity to take remedial action / update future buyers.

The one thing I wouldn’t do is negotiate a mouse discount without mentioning you will be coming back late in the purchase process for a further electrical discount.

I expect you are aware if there are bats on the property, stringent regulations are in place - see the Bat Conservation Trust.

IHT a must be paid within 6 months of the person’s death. After which HMRC charge interest. There may be other funds in the estate with which to pay the IHT but very often the property needs to be sold to pay it. Otherwise they’ll be looking at bridging loan.

OP - what’s your overall budget?

And what % of your budget is represented by these additional costs?

20k extra on top of a full renovation is not actually that much - which indicates your budget is tight.

Only 10% needs to be paid, it can be settled over a 10 year period, so long as 10% can be raised there won't be a huge issue there, and the first years payment doesn't attract interest, so lets say IHT was due on £100K, that's £40K due, so £4K due now - that's assuming there is any IHT payable, the vast majority of estates don't attract IHT at all with potentially up to £1m available prior to tax being applied.

There are specialist loans available to executors to settle the initial balance if needed - yes they attract interest, such is life.

Honestly OP, I don’t know why you are doing this to yourself. Walk away and find a property that doesn’t require this much work. It’s not just the work, it’s the unknowable stuff.

It can be dragged out with interest and a bridging loan but then you’re paying 2 lots of interest and for what? If you don’t get the price for the house you were holding out for you’ve simply lost money. Most beneficiaries want to get their legacy and move on.

It's a rare estate that is settled in 6 months, especially where property is involved, so paying the tax man a downpayment on IHT is fairly common. The figures involved are not normally that large if anything for a regular estate. As I say IHT simply doesn't feature for most estates anyway, so could easily not apply here.

I've been executor to two estates, both with property, never had to ay IHT, only submit IHT 400 to the taxman with no tax to pay, that was estates in one case with two properties, in one case one, both covered under the threshold amounts.

Yes but they will also know that if they've been provided with evidence of a mouse infestation then this will need to be declared as part of the self assessment in the solicitor's list of questions it will ask about these things so now they know about it, they cannot unknow it. So they need to sort it for any sale

I don't disagree, but what they would do about it, who knows, they could give the OP some money off and just offload the problem (I would do that myself) or they could get someone in and not offer a discount, or depending on the finances of the estate and time pressures they could take it off the market, do some works and re-list.

As I say, if it was me I would knock off the £!0k the op has requested and count myself lucky the problem is unloaded - but you can't call peoples actions, sometimes they can be irrational, sometime people cost themselves more in order not to give some money off - it makes no sense but there it is.

@Weneednewnames Have you actually spoken to the surveyor? A lot of those points sound like stock phrases covering themselves, surveyors are often much more forthcoming if you talk in person.

eg “bats may be there” well yes, that applies to any house but especially if slightly rural or in a leafy area but seeing them doesn’t mean they are roosting in the property. That is why planning often requires a bat survey as part of the application. Bats won’t stop you reroofing or other work even if they were shown to be roosting - it might require some mods or work to be done at a particular time of year.

Ditto asbestos - “might be” covers a multitude of sins. “May need rewiring” well yes but as @DeftWasp says its rare for a complete rewire to be needed.

If as you say the house is in need of general modernisation and updating then presumably it was priced accordingly and seen as such? In which case they are unlikely to want to drop the price substantially for a bunch of worst case “ifs” and a single quote for pest removal. However if you can get a more informed view of the risks from the surveyor then you can form a better view of the risks to you then you have the basis for more of a discussion.

Ultimately they may not want to take a drop but if they received offers over the asking and then wanted a very large amount dropped off, largely based on potential costs and one quote I can see why they might not take it seriously. a

You may well need to rewire completely just for safety.

People do jump to the conclusion of re-wiring very easily, in my 20 years in the electrical trade I have only personally encountered two properties that needed fully re-wiring, a victorian mansion that was wired in 1927 and a 4 bed detached dating from the 30's.

A huge majority of houses were re-wired in the 50's or 60's when square plugs became the norm and wiring standards changed. The cables used prior to this rely on rubber, which decays, but most of that died years ago, the vast majority of houses have PVC insulated cable that, as yet, has no service life on it.

The secondary school I was working in this week was wired in 1964, all the fuse boxes, cables, light switches and many of the sockets are original, with a few modifications to keep up with the regs its all still working, safely, and could have another 50 years in it.

Mumsnet has some form of obsession with rewiring, it’s v weird

op, ask for it to be sorted as a condition of sale if they say no, walk away.

thr rest of the things you knew, you’re not buying a new build and irs not their job to bring it to pristine, if they did the price would be much higher.

Bats? Protected species. Walk away.

Well no because it can often take 6 months to get a grant of probate, but a simple estate can be settled in 3-6 months. Most estates in the U.K. take 6-12 months. You can’t distribute the estate before the tax is paid, or at least the executor will run into legal complications if they try.

It figures that the estates of which you’ve been executor had no IHT. So you’ve never had to consider paying interest on either that or a bridging loan…

It doesn’t matter what the sellers want given that current mice infestations are a red flag to mortage companies.

It’s quite possible that the sellers will end up having to treat it in order to sell the house because lenders may refuse to lend until it’s sorted.

If the sellers don’t want to spend the money on it, they may have to find a cash buyer as is or go to auction.

Either way, the sellers are now legally obliged to disclose it on the TA6 which asks directly about pests.