Mice infestation - how to reflect in price / sale negotiations?

[Weneednewnames]

I'm buying a property that has thrown up a few issues, one of which is mice infestation. It's a bigger problem than I realised, minimum £10k to address it (but potentially much higher if there's electrical damage). I'm not willing to pay to eradicate a long-standing problem that long predates this purchase. How do I address this in negotiations?

Sorry this is so long!!!

The property was advertised at £375, and had lots of interest. It's a probate, currently empty. After a best & final process my offer of £390k was accepted. This says a lot about the desirability of the property as our local market is very slow right now.

I had a Level 3 survey which found extensive rodent infestation and then a pest control survey. I used a company that were recommended to me by a friend who found they were the only company that eradicated an embedded rat infestation in her property. In my case it's mice, not rats (good news) but it is very well established with "vast" evidence in loft and other evidence in kitchen (bad news).

The quote for fully dealing with this is massive - £400 for the extermination but 4k for identifying and sealing all entry points and 5k for loft cleaning, including clearing the infested insulation. Then another £2.5k to lay new insulation. The cost for removing insulation is high is because a) it's a massive loft (bungalow), b) has vermiculite insulation as well as standard fibreglass - huge pain to removek and c) is sodden with decades' worth of rodent urine and faeces (yuck). Further complication is that vermiculite insulation may contain asbestos. It's unlikely that it IS asbestos, but if it is, the removal needs to be specialist and will add another £15k to the cost because the loft is massive and there is a huge amount of it

What do I now? There are two options - which is either that the sellers deal with it before exchange, or that I do it after completion and it is reflected in the price.

If before exchange, I very much doubt that the sellers want to pay £10k for rodent treatment. However, without removing the infested insulation it's impossible to assess damage to electrical wiring, as this is laid below the insulation. AND the insulation needs to be tested for asbestos (£500).

If we wait til completion, I can't fully assess the risk & damage, and as I have pets who can't be in property during the treatment (and because I'm not willing to move while the infestation is in kitchen etc) then I would have to stay in my current rental for a couple of months til it's dealt with, which adds more costs and more time.

What is the best way forward here? Both options have massive costs - if sellers do it is £10k upfront, even I I cover the costs of laying new insulation. If I do it, the full cost, with new insulation and two months more in rented accommodation, is likely closer to £20k even if there is no electrical damage. That seems an absolutely massive price reduction for mice. But I don't want to accept a mouse-infested property!!

What do I do? How do I word the email to the EA? I am willing to walk away over it - the property also needs lots of other things done and my budget definitely cannot accommodate an extra 20k-40k for rodents.

(Also - yes, I could get other quotes and this could definitely be worth doing for the loft insulation clearance, but the extermination & proofing work (£5k) I strongly want to do with this firm since they seem to have the best chance of actually solving the problem. And the loft clearance is a big job - huge amount of vermiculite, rodent infested boards, rodent infested fibreglass insulation. So even a cheaper firm might only save £1-2k in best scenario).

That's correct, but the majority of estates, a little over 95% are not eligible for IHT, so its more than likely this one isn't, either way, we can't second guess the executors position.

We don't know where it is and how much the OP is paying, they may be getting a good deal for the area and the seller may be able to get another buyer.

It seems a bit of a waste of time to second guess what the executors will do, there is no way to know.

If signs of mice rendered a house unmortgageable then most houses in the country would never sell. They are hardly rare even in town.

Like any other problem it needs addressing to maintain the property, it doesn’t make it unsellable. Offering over the asking price then coming back with numbers like “10-20k reduction for mice removal, even though I don’t know the extent of the problem” is asking to be dismissed as trying it on. Especially when a chunk of that price includes work which would have been done as part of modernisation.

Its entirely up to the vendors if they want to test the market further and it wouldn’t surprise me if this was their choice. Anyone buying a house in need of modernisation and updating expects to spend a fair bit of money on it, over time if not all immediately.

The OP should at least be speaking to her surveyor to pin down the details and finding alternative quotes to assess rather than rely on the always worst case report.

I have a very different viewpoint here. I live in a bungalow and it is and will continue to be impossible to keep mice out of the loft. The access just makes it too easy for them if they are prevalent in the area. We have never had any wiring issues. Keeping them out of the house is much easier if you are planning to fully renovate the house because you will be mice hole aware. Literally any hole bigger than a pencil will need filling. However, the renovation will require complete ripping out of kitchen and bathrooms as these are the most likely access points. So I would ask if you want the house can you put up with mice in the loft or it will continue to be an ongoing and costly battle that the mice will probably win. If not, I would walk away.

I didn’t say ‘signs of mice’. There’s a big difference between “signs of mice” ie a few mouse droppings - which is ok; and an infestation which declarable. If the sellers don’t declare now they could be subject legal action including compensation.

Nor did I say it was “unsellable”.

Inexperienced sellers or those with poor agent advice may dismiss a price reduction as “trying it on” but they will simply find out the hard way. Their solicitor will now advise it has to go on the TA6. If they’re foolish enough to lie, the next mortgage surveyor or buyer’s surveyor will find it anyway, & they will be in the same position. If the surveyors don’t notice (unlikely given the scale) the buyers will as soon as they move in and they will sue the seller.

We’ve no idea the size of the estate or whether IHT is due, but the principle remains - most estates are settled in 6-12 months and beneficiaries generally want to crack on and get their legacies.

We do know what she paid 390k. And that the sellers will hit exactly the same issue with other buyers.

Thanks all. The house is desirable - good plot and good street - but it's not unique. Fully renovated 4-bed bungalows on the same street sold for £490 in 2022/23. Mine is a 3-bed and current ceiling value is likely £450 if done very well with new bathroom and kitchen. Probably £425k with a lighter touch updating.

I budgeted on the basis of what I thought the house was when I viewed it : in tired-but-move-in condition. Bathroom and kitchen both under 10 years old. I budgeted up to £30k to cover the updating and new boiler & heating and expected that I might do the roof in 3-5 years.

I don't have tens of thousands extra for rodents, asbsestos, bat surveys, or big roof repairs in the short term. It also doesn't make financial sense for me to spend that given the ceiling value of the property. I have talked to the surveyor but all he can say on these issues is that they need more information - they may not be a big problem at all, but the potential risk is there and I would be foolish to go ahead and just cross my fingers that it will be ok without getting that extra information (and the sellers are reluctant to allow me to get it).

From the seller perspective, probate is complete and they are keen to conclude the sale asap. I've not asked for any reduction yet but the signals I have had so far definitely suggest that they are not open to considering it. (Probably short-sighted as we could potentially complete within the month if there were no issues).

From my perspective, I'm not sure if it makes sense to proceed even with a cost reduction. Even if they gave me £15k off for the mice (very unlikely) I could still end up with big costs in relation to the asbestos, roof, maybe even the cavity wall insulation and electrics (though very good to know that full rewiring is not likely!!).

And that's all in addition to the mice question: do I want to take on a house with an active mouse infestation? I know it's pretty common and it's not a reason to exclude a house - but still, it's putting me off. Someone had left waste in the kitchen bin and mice had immediately been attracted to it. Definitely in the short-term and feasibly for much longer, I would be living with having to constantly manage food crumbs and food storage and never knowing whether mice have been crawling over items in the cupboards.

As several of you have said, if mice have been living in the loft for a long time (which they evidently have) they will be very difficult to fully get rid of. I think the quote I received from the pest control company probably does indicate the realistic costs of achieving that, since it fully proofs all the access points they can see in attic, gutters, eaves, soffits etc and it removes all mice-scented insulation and deep cleans the attic boards beneath. But then I'm back where I started with this thread: do I want to and can I afford to spend £10k on rodent removal, given the continuing unknowns elsewhere in the property?

It is definitely stressful for me. I'm buying alone, part of a new start after divorce, and I'm totally responsible for all the costs (and it's my financial future too). I feel really stupid for having gone this far down the line with a purchase and then getting cold feet - but maybe not as stupid as I'll feel if I go ahead with it and end up with a much bigger and more stressful process than I anticipated.

I’d definitely pull out. I am buying alone, and buying a new build (appreciate not for everyone) as I don’t have tens of thousands spare for unexpected costs. With this, i’d imagine the costs are going to creep up. I couldn’t deal with rodents.

Just pull out op,

to clarify you agreed 390 but don’t have rhe budget to deal with rhe issues. Ceiling value is irrelevant, unless you intend to flip, it moves as house prices escalate.

simply its a property in need of removation and you don’t have enough budget, so pull out.

You are not being at all stupid OP. You are being very thoughtful and considered. And all things considered it really does not make sense to buy this place. It will be tricky and stressful to remedy these issues and it doesn't sound like that is the best thing for you given the circumstances

OP, it’s completely normal to reduce price or pull out following a survey. That’s what they’re for.

I guess a general learning curve is that it’s not uncommon for probate properties to have a lot more wrong than you see on a viewing as they have not been properly maintained for some time.

30k was never going to be sufficient for this property, even without the mice and insulation issues.

So be kind to yourself, you’ve dodged a bullet, focus on properties in better condition.

I also don’t think you’re being stupid. You just misjudged, this property is out of your price range, so just pull out. They have plenty of interest so it’s fine.

I wouldn’t

If theres bats you might not be even able to do the work.

The roof, the mice, the asbestos, the upgrades tbh by time you finished it mighta been cheaper buying one of the expensive ones

You arent being silly, if they wont negotiate or give you more access to assess cutting your losses is sensible

I'd walk away. This sounds like my worst nightmare (well, maybe not worst - rats would be - but it's close).

The house was valued at £375K with out the estate agent calculating the cost of the rodent issue. You now know it could cost up to £40K to be sorted. I would drop my offer to £350K and if it wasn’t accepted happily walk away, knowing I wasn’t getting into something I would hugely regret.

They will likely think you are "getting a deal and " taking the piss and gazundering"

We gave up on probate properties for this reason totally delusional sellers.

You will need to deal with the mice (for multiple reasons this is the best way)

If you could live with 15k / whatever amount off ask give reasons and see what they say.
They will say yes and you progress or the sale will fall through.

I would strongly consider walking away irrespective of the 15k off.

Survey needed but sellers refusing access for a full survey
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Sorry OP, but I’d walk away. Too many red flags.

There's a reason they haven't dealt with it and would rather sell and pass the problems onto the buyer. Potential permanent mice infestation, dangerous electrical wiring and asbestos removal? No, I'd walk away from this one. Tell them once it's all sorted to let you know and that you'll have the money in place and will be ready to move quickly if they want to accept your offer.

The problem with probate properties, and why they often hang around is multiple beneficiaries all wanting a big chunk of a pie that just isn't there, so they hold out for big money, without factoring in the probable need for extensive modernisation works etc. and resolution of problems like this.

Haven't you ever seen Mousehunt?

This

it sounds like the owners have been neglectful so goodness knows what other issues could crop up

This is a sensible, head over heart, way to proceed. If you dont get it no problem. Particularly as you are doing this on your own - its extra important to not make a financial mistake.

Have you considered the implications for your house insurance.