Mice infestation - how to reflect in price / sale negotiations?

[Weneednewnames]

I'm buying a property that has thrown up a few issues, one of which is mice infestation. It's a bigger problem than I realised, minimum £10k to address it (but potentially much higher if there's electrical damage). I'm not willing to pay to eradicate a long-standing problem that long predates this purchase. How do I address this in negotiations?

Sorry this is so long!!!

The property was advertised at £375, and had lots of interest. It's a probate, currently empty. After a best & final process my offer of £390k was accepted. This says a lot about the desirability of the property as our local market is very slow right now.

I had a Level 3 survey which found extensive rodent infestation and then a pest control survey. I used a company that were recommended to me by a friend who found they were the only company that eradicated an embedded rat infestation in her property. In my case it's mice, not rats (good news) but it is very well established with "vast" evidence in loft and other evidence in kitchen (bad news).

The quote for fully dealing with this is massive - £400 for the extermination but 4k for identifying and sealing all entry points and 5k for loft cleaning, including clearing the infested insulation. Then another £2.5k to lay new insulation. The cost for removing insulation is high is because a) it's a massive loft (bungalow), b) has vermiculite insulation as well as standard fibreglass - huge pain to removek and c) is sodden with decades' worth of rodent urine and faeces (yuck). Further complication is that vermiculite insulation may contain asbestos. It's unlikely that it IS asbestos, but if it is, the removal needs to be specialist and will add another £15k to the cost because the loft is massive and there is a huge amount of it

What do I now? There are two options - which is either that the sellers deal with it before exchange, or that I do it after completion and it is reflected in the price.

If before exchange, I very much doubt that the sellers want to pay £10k for rodent treatment. However, without removing the infested insulation it's impossible to assess damage to electrical wiring, as this is laid below the insulation. AND the insulation needs to be tested for asbestos (£500).

If we wait til completion, I can't fully assess the risk & damage, and as I have pets who can't be in property during the treatment (and because I'm not willing to move while the infestation is in kitchen etc) then I would have to stay in my current rental for a couple of months til it's dealt with, which adds more costs and more time.

What is the best way forward here? Both options have massive costs - if sellers do it is £10k upfront, even I I cover the costs of laying new insulation. If I do it, the full cost, with new insulation and two months more in rented accommodation, is likely closer to £20k even if there is no electrical damage. That seems an absolutely massive price reduction for mice. But I don't want to accept a mouse-infested property!!

What do I do? How do I word the email to the EA? I am willing to walk away over it - the property also needs lots of other things done and my budget definitely cannot accommodate an extra 20k-40k for rodents.

(Also - yes, I could get other quotes and this could definitely be worth doing for the loft insulation clearance, but the extermination & proofing work (£5k) I strongly want to do with this firm since they seem to have the best chance of actually solving the problem. And the loft clearance is a big job - huge amount of vermiculite, rodent infested boards, rodent infested fibreglass insulation. So even a cheaper firm might only save £1-2k in best scenario).

If the work will cost £10k then you need a much bigger discount than that off the selling price, otherwise effectively you're paying exactly the same total amount you were before but with the added hassle and worry of sorting out an infestation.

Either they sort it out pre exchange, or you negotiate a large discount, or you pull out.

I agree you don’t want the current owners to do the work. That would give you no control about the standard the work is done to.

I’m happy to do a lot of work to a house, taking down walls, new kitchen, new boiler, new windows etc. But I would not want to be starting off by clearing a huge mouse infestation which has caused extensive and expensive damage.

So I would either walk away, or I would be asking for a LOT of money off the asking price to make it worth my while going through that hell.

I’d walk away. A mouse infestation that bad will take ages to clear and I bet they’re in the walls and near electrics (maybe knowing through wires).

So 7.5k is for replacing the insulation? Does it need replacing anyway if its old and older standards?

At those prices I’d be at least looking for other quotes/opinions. I’d also want a break down of 4k for sealing entrypoints.

Is this a rural property?

Yes it will, walk away and forget it, we had a small infestation catching 2 a night and it took 6 weeks to get rid off ( originated from our neighbour) It was awful. There will be all sorts of damage that will only come to light once you're in. Just forget it!

I had mice downstairs (got a lean to) and had to do all sorts of things to drains and block entrance points in. My mum had them in her house and they were living in a space next to the cupboard under the stairs as well as in kitchen area. Cats brought them in both cases.

OP, do you realise that even if your successful in eradicating the infestation the urine will have soaked into unreachable places ? Even removing and replacing the insulation won't completely sort it - as it will be soaked into the joists and even the plaster beneath.
You will be getting whiffs of ammonia for years. That smell also attracts them back :(
I would put the adjusted offer at more than a 20k reduction, personally I wouldn't want to deal with it at all and would find another property

£10K cost is a serious infestation. Probably going upstairs and into walls/ceilings. The damage they can do is ridiculous, they can live in walls.

Luckily I did the work in my place with the help of my stepdad and brother and they're finally gone! Same story with my mum’s house, gone too. I also bought a cat flap with a video camera so the cat cannot bring in prey now.

I would walk away. I would expect this is the tip of the iceberg and I would just count myself lucky for finding out about it now. The current owners can’t be trusted to do or facilitate the work before completion and are probably not going to accept you needing another £20k+ off if it turns out that the joists are all rotten or the wiring is dangerous.

I’ve just seen it could be over £10K if electrical faults. Definitely walk away. Property needing other things done. No thanks. As stated before I’m not sure I would trust the vendors to complete this work properly. What if they get the work done but not properly so you complete and the mice are still there? This happened to both me and my mum’s houses. Mice are notoriously difficult to eradicate as they literally spread all over a house (or can do). Yes they go upstairs, I had them in the walls upstairs too so had to get them treated there and next doors house had to get treatment too as they were using a wall as a get through to the houses. I didn’t pay what you paid but enough. And it was a family friend so they didn’t overcharge.

Personally, I would walk away from this one. But if you really are set on it, definitely try to negotiate. For better or worse, negotiation is just part of buying/selling a property. I'm sure the vendors will expect you to come back with some sort of reduction following the survey results. I think they'd be shocked that £400 to kill mice has ballooned into potentially £10k or more though...

I would go back to the estate agent and say, 'this is what the survey has thrown up. I've got a quote...etc' and ask if the seller is willing to reduce the price by the total cost. I assume they'll say no and, if you're lucky, you'll meet in the middle.

It’s not just 10-20k. It’s 11.5k for the mouse clearance, not including electrics + redecoration, 15k if the vermiculite insulation contains asbestos (quite possible that it does if it was built between 40s-80s) + 6 months rent while the work is done + all the extra work.

I’d be looking to cut the offer by 20% if not more - or walk. Renovations could easily cost 100k all in.

They will struggle to shift it now. Buyers may find it problematic to get a mortage so the sellers may have to hope for a cash buyer looking for a renovation project. It may end up going to auction.

But it doesn’t sound like OP had the funds for this type of property in the first place so I don’t think she’s lost anything.

leave it for someone else, sounds like a massive money pit.

I wouldnt touch this if they dont clear mouse house first.

There could be electrical damage, rot from faeces and urine, the cost for repairs could be mad

And i wouldnt want to pay for it in case they were removed and the bill goes up and you change your mind

This sounds like a really big infestation.
Do any if the nearby properies have this problem?

Mice are filthy disease ridden vermin. who are very hard to totally get rid of

Walk away. Dont buy this house

There might be a great cook among them

Its only Rats that cook

I managed to get rid of them and so did my mum, we both have Victorian properties. And cats. Who brought the mice in. But it took years for both of us, I had no idea where they were at first and they came from neighbours house too. Mum’s is detached but just the kind they like, lots of wood, pantry and larder. Both of us thought we’d got rid of them but they spread easily and get into loads of places. My old cat (half Siamese) knew where they were and would stop and sniff there but he couldn’t get to them. Luckily one of my mum’s pupils (she was a teacher) owns his own pest control company and he treated both our properties at a special mate’s rate and told us what to block off (drain entrances, expanding foam in entrance points) which I did with help of stepdad. We both still have cats but we both have video cat flaps now which see when cat has prey and blocks entry with it. Had mine almost a month now and it works. Wish it’d been around sooner.

I can't imagine the sellers will reduce at all. I've just sold a probate property which definitely had mice. Three surveys were done by prospective buyers and none showed up the mice. If you do pull out, they will sell it to the next person who may well not even know about the problem.

It really depends how much you want this house and at what price given its issues.
Try negotiating at a price you are happy to proceed with given the issues or walk away.

How bad can it be if it's 10k to fix?! I would be worried they'll come back.

You can't force the current owner to engage this expensive pest control measure. They may say they will and not do it properly. So I guess you say you want 10k off?

Honestly I would walk away. If you are heartset on it, then I would be chancing a massive price reduction as this is a major headache to sort out. Its probate, the family won’t care to deal with it, they just want it sold and cash in.

We once had one single mouse in the house and the smell of its urine was 🤢🤢🤢

I think you probably need to walk away unless you get a HUGE discount.

How do you actually assess the electrics are OK ?

You could test, but they may pass the test even if the insulation is chewed, only to fail a couple of years down the line. The only real way to check is to expose it all, and if you are doing that you might as well rewire.

Surely the mouse pis will have soaked into the ceiling boards to at least on the top side. So if you want to use the loft that will all have to be stripped out and redone, as well as getting rid of the stink from the joists.

And what about diseases. Can you catch diseases from dried mouse droppings and urine.

I'm an electrician OP, you need to walk away not because its a big problem, it's not - I work in the countryside, mouse damage is something I deal with daily "mouse action" as we call it.

It clearly is stressing you before you have started, and expecting to do work on a property before you move in is not a good move, the owners could let you remove the vermiculite (I'm not quite sure why you are doing that) get an EICR done (we can do that with the insulation and mice in situ), then they could pull out, leaving you out of pocket, but having cleared out the loft!.

In 20 years of being in the trade and waded through some wonderfully infested lofts, re-wired the places, I've never come across anyone removing all the insulation, particularly vermiculite that dries out all by itself.

Can't see them letting you start before completion (they would be advised against) or knocking £10k off.