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House prices

1000 replies

Twiglets1 · 13/12/2023 17:03

Hi Guys, we got to the end of the last thread so need another one on this controversial topic!

And to respond to @CrashyTime I don't say "demand is strong" over and over again. In fact, I rarely comment on demand at all. My posts are more focussed on house prices and interest rates/mortgage rates.

And I don't deny economic "reality", I just don't exaggerate how bad the house price correction is likely to be. I have a running bet with @XVGN that property prices generally will fall about 5% in 2023 and another 5% in 2024 so I do believe prices are falling in most areas. Just nothing like the 30-35% crash predicted by some!

OP posts:
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mamma65432 · 31/12/2023 13:13

I've just been watching Gary Stevenson's commentary this morning on youtube, (Gary's Economics) he thinks that as inflation comes down interest rates will follow (no surprise there) but this also means that wealthy people who have cash tied up in savings will be more likely to invest heavily in property again so he's forecasting that both house prices and rents will go up in the next couple of years making it harder for younger people to get on the housing ladder. Also that the gap between rich and poor will continue to grow.

Twiglets1 · 01/01/2024 10:38

XVGN · 01/01/2024 10:28

London buyers/sellers.

A new Chrome app is available to help analyse and compare prices on RM.

https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/rightmove-london-property/ddnkogahnfkgkechllbdfgacnkikddbf?pli=1

I just tried it - interesting!

OP posts:
XVGN · 01/01/2024 11:02

Twiglets1 · 01/01/2024 10:38

I just tried it - interesting!

I assume it is an amateur enterprise and thus should be viewed in that light - might be useful or might be full of issues.

MidnightMeltdown · 02/01/2024 11:19

Another year over and surprise surprise, the property crash that we were told was coming after the referendum result, after leaving the EU, after the Covid lockdown, after the stamp duty holiday, and after the interest rate hike has still failed to materialise.

I'm sure that all those attending the Henry Higgins school of economics will continue telling us that it's just around the corner...'just you wait, just you wait!'

I think that as interest rates start falling, we are likely to see a lot of pent up demand from those who have delayed buying.

DrySherry · 03/01/2024 08:40

I agree with this that trends for property values are going to be about the health of the economy in 2024. It could go either way - but personally I think we may get a mild recession which will continue to add downward pressure. A crash is unlikely but a small correction (maybe 10% peak to trough) is probable. Some areas are already approaching reaching half of that now. I see a relatively brief period toward the end of this year, or early next year, when prices will be at the lowest. Gentle recovery thereafter.

"Hudson says the key driver for house prices will be the economy – if the UK goes into recession and people start to lose their jobs, then the market is likely to fall"

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/dec/30/uk-property-market-house-prices-mortgage-rates-2024

UK property market: what will happen to house prices and mortgage rates in 2024?

Whether you are a first-time buyer or remortaging, we look at what the new year could bring

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/dec/30/uk-property-market-house-prices-mortgage-rates-2024

Twiglets1 · 03/01/2024 09:08

An interesting article, thanks for posting it @DrySherry

OP posts:
LGBirmingham · 03/01/2024 16:14

DrySherry · 03/01/2024 08:40

I agree with this that trends for property values are going to be about the health of the economy in 2024. It could go either way - but personally I think we may get a mild recession which will continue to add downward pressure. A crash is unlikely but a small correction (maybe 10% peak to trough) is probable. Some areas are already approaching reaching half of that now. I see a relatively brief period toward the end of this year, or early next year, when prices will be at the lowest. Gentle recovery thereafter.

"Hudson says the key driver for house prices will be the economy – if the UK goes into recession and people start to lose their jobs, then the market is likely to fall"

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/dec/30/uk-property-market-house-prices-mortgage-rates-2024

Not yet another scheme to keep prices inflated!?

DrySherry · 04/01/2024 13:44

I'm undecided if this is good news or signs of a coming recession ?
It could be good news that people are generally less worried about debt, even though it has become more expensive, I guess because of wage inflation ?
Or it could be bad news that the barrel has been scraped, savings emptied and that stuff people need HAS to be put on more expensive credit or they can't have it ?
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/consumer-credit-borrowing-increases-fastest-104226604.html

Consumer credit borrowing increases at fastest annual rate in five years

The annual growth rate for consumer credit was 8.6% in November, the highest rate since September 2018, according to the Bank of England.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/consumer-credit-borrowing-increases-fastest-104226604.html

XVGN · 04/01/2024 15:45

For the nosey analysts among us, houseprices.io has just been updated with the first tranche of November completion data and additional data for prior months.

https://houseprices.io/?q=lewes

Search results | houseprices.io

https://houseprices.io/?q=lewes

KievLoverTwo · 04/01/2024 18:33

XVGN · 04/01/2024 15:45

For the nosey analysts among us, houseprices.io has just been updated with the first tranche of November completion data and additional data for prior months.

https://houseprices.io/?q=lewes

Sample sizes seem to be FAR smaller this month. Just me?

XVGN · 04/01/2024 18:35

KievLoverTwo · 04/01/2024 18:33

Sample sizes seem to be FAR smaller this month. Just me?

The first tranche is always slim - around 10% - but overall transaction volumes are significantly lower as well, so this compounds the issue.

BlueMongoose · 04/01/2024 19:08

XVGN · 29/12/2023 19:43

We're talking specifically about cash buyers - not your run on the mill mortgage payers

We were cash buyers last time. Our reasons for moving were practical and not financial, we'd have moved then regardless of the economy or anything else. We used our savings and pensions to buy, because we needed it empty to
do work on it, and on our current house to sell it. Then repaid our pensions and savings when we sold our previous house.
And we're not unusual- according to savills, "In January 2023, cash buyers accounted for 38.5 per cent of all transactions, while mortgaged home movers had dropped to 25.3 per cent, significantly down from their March 2021 share of 34 per cent." So more cash buyers than mortgage buyers- cash buyers therefore being more 'run of the mill'. Seems odd, I'd agree, but that's what they said.

romatheroamer · 05/01/2024 10:43

Slightly o/t I see Howard Davies (aged 72) has hit the headlines for saying it's not that difficult to buy a house in the UK. I heard the interview on Today and thought he sounded a right duck.

romatheroamer · 05/01/2024 10:44

Dick!!

XVGN · 05/01/2024 11:22

romatheroamer · 05/01/2024 10:43

Slightly o/t I see Howard Davies (aged 72) has hit the headlines for saying it's not that difficult to buy a house in the UK. I heard the interview on Today and thought he sounded a right duck.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67890334

Economic expert in the wild 😆

Sir Howard Davies

Sir Howard Davies: Not that difficult to buy a home, says NatWest chair

Sir Howard Davies says there are "dangers" in people having easy access to mortgage credit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67890334

DrySherry · 09/01/2024 08:07

What will happen to those who have paid deposits and the property they have agreed to buy is being left unfinished ?
What will happen to the warranty of the recently built houses ?
Anyone know ?
What will happen to the freeholds of the properties that were sold as leashold - with Stewart Milne as freeholder. Does the administrator give the freehold to the largest creditor...
Not good.

Tracker1234 · 09/01/2024 09:01

I have been a home owner for 40 years. Ditto my parents - people like Crashy have been around for years. I don’t know if they are potential buyers and are just hoping everything will crash in price and they will swoop in.

Both parents brought many many years ago in London. Just normal sized houses. Didn’t become landlords and just lived in their homes for years on end. Eventually they were sold and the large equity has enabled them to fund their care (and very much more). No tax to pay because it was their only house. Show me ANYWHERE that has given such a return.

I own my own home in a very nice part of the UK. It’s been
tricky as there are lots sorts of distractions that have been thrown in our direction but we kept going. At one point when I was living on my own my flat was sold for what I actually paid for it 6 years previously but it was my home during that time so I don’t feel upset.

XVGN · 09/01/2024 09:27

Tracker1234 · 09/01/2024 09:01

I have been a home owner for 40 years. Ditto my parents - people like Crashy have been around for years. I don’t know if they are potential buyers and are just hoping everything will crash in price and they will swoop in.

Both parents brought many many years ago in London. Just normal sized houses. Didn’t become landlords and just lived in their homes for years on end. Eventually they were sold and the large equity has enabled them to fund their care (and very much more). No tax to pay because it was their only house. Show me ANYWHERE that has given such a return.

I own my own home in a very nice part of the UK. It’s been
tricky as there are lots sorts of distractions that have been thrown in our direction but we kept going. At one point when I was living on my own my flat was sold for what I actually paid for it 6 years previously but it was my home during that time so I don’t feel upset.

re the ANYWHERE comment, as true as that may or may not be, it's not healthy for the economy overall. We're too dependent on house prices for prosperity and not on economic production. I think that is one of the reasons for us being so uncompetitive versus other countries.

High and rising prices inhibit economic growth by reducing the mobility of British workers. They also force governments of all persuasions to come up with idiotic policies designed to keep prices up lest they be voted out at the next election.

CrashyTime · 09/01/2024 13:44

DrySherry · 09/01/2024 08:07

What will happen to those who have paid deposits and the property they have agreed to buy is being left unfinished ?
What will happen to the warranty of the recently built houses ?
Anyone know ?
What will happen to the freeholds of the properties that were sold as leashold - with Stewart Milne as freeholder. Does the administrator give the freehold to the largest creditor...
Not good.

Exactly, one immediate reaction I think will be less people willing to put money up front for unfinished or not even started homes, that just puts the brakes on the market and developers even harder, this lot operated in one of the wealthiest parts of the UK for many years, and the houses were well overpriced for what they are IMO, hard to have much sympathy really.

rainingsnoring · 09/01/2024 14:25

XVGN · 09/01/2024 09:27

re the ANYWHERE comment, as true as that may or may not be, it's not healthy for the economy overall. We're too dependent on house prices for prosperity and not on economic production. I think that is one of the reasons for us being so uncompetitive versus other countries.

High and rising prices inhibit economic growth by reducing the mobility of British workers. They also force governments of all persuasions to come up with idiotic policies designed to keep prices up lest they be voted out at the next election.

Good post @XVGN. It might be nice for the couple of generations that have been so generously enriched simply by being born at the right time but it's awful for younger people and no way to run an economy at all.
Also, just because you and your parents were lucky and enjoyed all the sharp rises of recent decades, it does not mean that the same thing will continue to happen now or in the future. I have no idea why people make this assumption.
We first bought a home many years btw.

Twiglets1 · 11/01/2024 11:40

As mentioned on another thread and commented on by @KievLoverTwo I found this old debate between "two property experts" on what would happen to house prices in 2023 & 24 (the debate was in June 23). The two men in question were Rob Dix, co-founder of the property forum, Property Hub, and Charlie Lamdin, founder of property website BestAgent.

What will happen in 2023?
Charlie: My view is that house prices will be experiencing their steepest falls by the end of this year, but we won't see the evidence of that reported for six to nine months after that.

Rob: My guess is that we'll see prices fall in areas like the South East and hold firm in others, resulting in a small decline at a national level. But I say 'guess' rather than 'prediction' because trying to establish the overall shape of the market is hard enough, but pinning a precise timescale on it is basically impossible.
The big variable overlaying all of this is inflation. If inflation starts to come under control over the summer, and the markets believe the Bank of England will cut rates over the medium term, that will support current pricing – but if rates seem to be staying higher for longer, the market will come under pressure.

What about house prices in 2024 and 2025?
Rob: We do need to be aware that we're due to have a general election by the end of January 2025. It's possible that they'll introduce support for first-time buyers this autumn or next spring, and attempt to get a feel-good factor going throughout next year.
I don't think it's possible to put a number on it with any kind of confidence, but we do need to be aware that in real terms (after deducting inflation) house prices have fallen significantly. House prices are currently around 4 per cent below their peak according to Nationwide, but in real terms, again according to Nationwide, prices are around 12 per cent below their peak.
With only a minor further decline plus continued inflation, we could be looking at a 20 per cent real terms fall by the end of this year.
That's a significant correction (more than 2008), even if in nominal terms it doesn't look like it.

Charlie: In brief, 2024 will see much lower house prices because of the time lag effect of interest rates and price reporting. The worst of the falls will become apparent in 2024. It's the momentum of the economic situation, it takes time. The momentum in prices is gathering speed in the downward direction behind the scenes. On average, with significant regional and local variations, I'm expecting prices to fall a total of 35 per cent in nominal terms over approximately three years, from their peak in 2022, to 2025 as the UK goes through its own financial recalibration on the back of global financial events.

Asked why he (unlike Charlie) didn't see prices falling much in nominal terms, Dix replied that "Over the last few years we've seen the price of houses go up along with the price of everything, but we haven't seen typical boom-time behaviour: no unrestrained lending, no 'I'd better buy now because prices will only ever go up' attitudes from buyers, and so on.There was a sudden spike in activity due to lifestyle changes around Covid, but that's not the same thing.
This makes me believe that the market will nominally go largely sideways for a year or two, which would still be a significant correction in real terms.
The tests that were brought in after the financial crisis means that buyers have been stress-tested up to – and beyond – the mortgage rates we see today.
This doesn't necessarily mean that new buyers will be willing to pay the current level of prices, but it will reduce the number of forced sellers.

I think Dix sounds pretty sensible whereas Charlie presumably just wanted to grab attention with his click bait 35% price fall in nominal terms in 3 years. I'm sure the Charlie lovers will disagree but time will tell, I guess.

OP posts:
RosePetals86 · 11/01/2024 11:43

House prices are depressing! Would love to move up the ladder and get a detached in our area but it would mean doubling our current mortgage and probably adding a few extra years too- which doesn’t appeal. Unless we have a big injection of cash I can’t see us being able to 👎🏼

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