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Unreasonable Neighbours/Pain

114 replies

Jeffwest1 · 06/07/2023 12:16

So, long story so please bear with me.

We bought our house over 20 years ago, at the time we bought it the neighbours were lovely, and soon after we moved in they built an extension which we knew about. One of the quirks with the house is that we have a right of access across the garden to a gate, which is noted in the deeds as a 2 meter column from our garden to the gate. When the extension was built they have to re-establish that corridor by adding a gate and step.

Fast forward a few years, and after a messy break up they sold the house, which was about 5 years ago.

The new neighbours at first were fine, until we actually started using the access the following summer to clear our 146 feet of garden with lawn and hedges cuttings, then the problems started.

To slightly give them there due, the decking they took over was rotting and badly in need of repair/replacement, which after lockdown started easing they did do, however, when this was being done, they tried, unsuccessfully to install a fence panel across the gap by essentially lying to us and the gardeners, they told us they did not know what was happening about the gap, and they didn't tell the gardeners it was a legal right of access until we pointed it out when they jumped into our garden and started digging holes for the fence posts :-(

We had another run in a few weeks later, when trying to go through the gate on the other side, the padlock key we had didn't work, neither did the neighbours, they had provided a very cheap padlock and it had broken, he had to bolt cutter it off, and we provided a new one we had bought for our shed. Although through this episode she stated that we couldn't just walk through the garden when we wanted, we had to ask there permission and she would allow us to use the gate when they opened it for us.

This was the first time we spoke to a solicitor on this, who told us to talk to them again as they couldn't do that and they would know full well that it the case.
We did speak to them again, her attitude had changed from the day before and she was far more understanding, and stated she wanted us all to 'get along'

About a month later, we installed a side sliding awning into the gap, which we padlocked from our side, this made using the access easy for us, gave us, and them, privacy.

Since then they have continued to place tables, large unmovable garden umbrellas, trailing hose pipes and cables in the way.

Just over a year ago, they had there first child.

Then, for the first time in almost three years they spoke to us, whilst I was moving hedge trimmings through to my car to take them to the local dump.

She informed me that they were concerned for the safety of there child, the awning was a problem and she deemed it to be unsafe. They want to put up a gate.

I said that's fine, however we wanted to know what they were going to do and how, we were happy for a conversation about it to see what would work best for all.

Speaking to my wife later, we agreed that this was just an excuse to try and again put up a barrier which we would find blocked/padlocked from there side very quickly, while we would listen, we would raise this as part of that conversation.

The following week, a gardener they had employed the year before to build a shed came, told us the plan, essentially it was the same plan as before, a gate, then an additional piece of fence panel to fill the rest of the 2 meter gap, when we asked how it would open and how it would be secured, he was a little unsure about this, but gave some answers, we stated that in reality, the awning worked for us, we did not need to secure it, it rolled into itself so no need to have it hanging in the garden, but we also did not have to have him dig up our garden to place three fence posts in an area we have placed artificial turf and have plant pots with shrubs and plants either side of the gap.

She then got very angry, telling us we had to keep her child safe, the awning was a danger to him, if it was windy and the awning billowed out he could be pushed over by it and badly injured, (For the record the awning bows about about 1/2 foot in the heaviest of winds and auto brakes at that point, not sure what he would be doing, standing by the awning if the wind was that severe?)

Anyway, she then started on that we were being unreasonable, and in fact she could have just done it, or placed a large planter in the way and what were we going to do it about it.

We did mention that they have 60 odd feet of fake grass which surely would be more than safe for him, this set her off again with her child should be able to play and explore all of the garden, (Like us they have 147 feet of garden, 60 feet or so of which they have as fake grass, the decking is about 20 feet, they have a large outside office, approx. 30 feet with a paved area with seating in front, the other 20+ feet is where the extension was placed.).

Clearly we stopped the conversation at that point, but she continued to be rude and quiet offensive.

We have consulted a solicitor again who has suggested we write them a letter, reminding them that we have the right of access which they cannot block, as well as reminding them that they cannot make us change our garden to accommodate them, nor can they change it for us!!

Sorry, this has gone on far longer than I had anticipated.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone else has had similar issues and how they overcame them without having to take the neighbours to court, which I fear eventually we are going to have to do.

OP posts:
littlemousebigcheese · 06/07/2023 12:20

God it sounds like a nightmare, I'm sorry. Can you ask the solicitor to write them a letter? Can you do something like offer to sell them the bit of land so deeds are updated? Not sure how that would work but is there anyway to divide it up so you don't need the access?! A diagram would help understand!!

Rollercoaster1920 · 06/07/2023 12:21

Listen to your solicitor. Put stuff in writing.

Could you do without the access? If so - how much would you be willing to accept as compensation to have it closed off completely?

Gardengirl108 · 06/07/2023 12:24

I’m finding it hard to visualise without a plan 😉 but is there any way you could resolve this by selling your access to your neighbour (if they want complete privacy then they maybe prepared to pay for it) or is this the only access you have, i.e you can’t put in a gate/access elsewhere on your garden that works for you? Obviously if this was doable, it’d have to be done properly with legal advice and execution, etc. Good luck, I imagine this situation is very frustrating.

Thebigblueballoon · 06/07/2023 12:25

What a ridiculous fuss by your neighbours. She sounds like she has a right stick up her arse. I’d be asking my solicitor to draft up a letter outlining your legal rights.

Jeffwest1 · 06/07/2023 12:40

We have 147 feet of garden, it is laid to lawn, as it was when we bought it. On one side we have a hedge which is about 4 feet high, on the other a hedge which is about 10 feet high, (The road slopes and the drop from there garden to ours at the point of the gap is about 4 feet.

If we did not have the access we could not be able to remove the amount of hedge and lawn trimmings we produce.

While we could fence the smaller side, the higher side would cost far too much, the lawn would also be very costly to replace as fake.

We have a back and front door, however, having had the fire brigade here when the kids we have were smaller, they stated we need to keep the access as it is a fire exit, also, while we could give up the right to the access, from the reading I have done recently, councils are loathed to grant it, as it is legal as it comes with the house, we have to apply to the council to have it removed by writing to them, say we do not want it anymore, however they almost certainly would refuse as when we move on, it might be needed by the next people in the house.

The access on the deeds is clear, it is a 2 meter corridor across the front of the extension to the gate on the other side, we did discuss moving it with the solicitor before, but this would require us moving it further up the garden, which we are pretty sure they would not be happy with.

OP posts:
Rollercoaster1920 · 06/07/2023 12:51

After your update I'd definitely pay your solicitor to write to your neighbours being very clear what your rights are. And their obligations around unrestricted access. Plus the fact that you will take legal measures to protect it which would be costly for them.

They bought their house with this access. I'd never agree to buy property with such a thing.

Inkpotlover · 06/07/2023 12:58

Definitely send a solicitor's letter. While I do have huge sympathy for your NDN, they knew what the score was with the ROW when they bought their house. But I also wonder why you don't let them know ahead of time when you'll be using the access, for the sake of neighbourly relations? It can't be that often and it may mitigate some of the stress.

fortheloveofflowers · 06/07/2023 12:58

I’m confused by the awning tbh. I just can’t picture what the awning is all about and need a drawing.

Inkpotlover · 06/07/2023 13:01

Also, I don't see why a council would have any say over a variation of a right of way between two private properties. You should check that with your solicitor because it sounds incorrect.

ilovemydogmore · 06/07/2023 13:07

Diagram!!!

fruitbrewhaha · 06/07/2023 13:09

A diagram would be useful. In fact it’s mumsnet law to draw a picture for us.

Im also struggling to understand the awning.

If they don’t like the awning they are welcome to put something on their side in their land but you have row so they cannot lock it.

Have you written a letter? Laying it all out and perhaps point out the row was clear when they bought the house, and they paid less for it because of this.

Peony654 · 06/07/2023 13:13

the Fact they have fake grass, enough said. What a nightmare. Definitely take legal advice and see what can be done

LadyTemperance · 06/07/2023 13:21

Inkpotlover · 06/07/2023 12:58

Definitely send a solicitor's letter. While I do have huge sympathy for your NDN, they knew what the score was with the ROW when they bought their house. But I also wonder why you don't let them know ahead of time when you'll be using the access, for the sake of neighbourly relations? It can't be that often and it may mitigate some of the stress.

That would be like someone notifying their next door neighbour every time they intended leaving their house as they would be going past their house.
This is a legal right of way, they can use it whenever they choose. If they always told them in advance it could be construed as asking permission.

MidwifeAMA · 06/07/2023 13:23

We def need a drawing! Pleeeeeease

Seeline · 06/07/2023 13:24

Are they ex-council properties? Otherwise, I can't see why the Council would be involved.

I can also see why the ndn would want her garden to be totally secure with a small child. It must be very difficult to not know whether someone else has left gates/awnings (?)etc open when you let your DC out to play. I think if you acknowledge this, you might get further with your discussions.

GrannyAchingsShepherdsHut · 06/07/2023 13:24

Would they and you be willing to move the access to the very far end of the garden, and they can then fence it off completely from their garden if they wish to?

It's entirely possible their solicitor didn't explain it properly to them when they bought it, and has just said 'there's a right of way'. I see posts on here all the time from people whose neighbours have a right of way and they want them to only use it on bin day or ask for permission first or whatever.

I'd think a letter from your solicitor would be more likely to be listened to than you writing down what you've already said. They're not listening to you, writing it down won't change that.

I don't understand the awning situation. Is it entirely in your garden?

Reugny · 06/07/2023 13:24

Seeline · 06/07/2023 13:24

Are they ex-council properties? Otherwise, I can't see why the Council would be involved.

I can also see why the ndn would want her garden to be totally secure with a small child. It must be very difficult to not know whether someone else has left gates/awnings (?)etc open when you let your DC out to play. I think if you acknowledge this, you might get further with your discussions.

Then you don't buy a property where your neighbours or the public have access rights over part of your garden.

Spectre8 · 06/07/2023 13:24

It doesn't matter, end of the day the legal situation is clear, you have right of access. You don't have to tell them when you are using it, you have right to access your garden whenever you like. The rest is bs. They are obligated to ensure its kept clear and free.

I have an alley at back of my garden that I own but I have to give right of access to my neighbour. So I have to make sure its always kept clear I can't just dump stuff there and leave it. If I need to temp put something there if I cannot take it straight to the tip I just drop a note saying when it will be cleared. I'm lucky he has never used it once.

If they are ao bothered about safety why don't they just fence the garden up to where access bit starts ...I'm confused of this has been down already

loislovesstewie · 06/07/2023 13:28

And, I have a feeling that if you told them every time, then they would object to that. I'm sorry but the ROW was there before they bought. Their solicitor should have talked them through exactly what this meant. Many years ago we lived in a property with a ROW, but only so one neighbour could take bins out. We had a ROW over the next house on the other side for the same purpose.It wasn't a general ROW neighbours could pop into back doors rather than front, we had to point that out ,much to their general annoyance.
I'm afraid it is solicitors letter time.

Reugny · 06/07/2023 13:29

I'd think a letter from your solicitor would be more likely to be listened to than you writing down what you've already said. They're not listening to you, writing it down won't change that.

The solicitor is trying to avoid the situation getting legal and nasty, this is why the OP should write to the neighbour first and keep a record of when they did so.

KievLoverTwo · 06/07/2023 13:32

It sounds to me like your neighbours are doing anything they can to try to wrestle back control to get some sort of privacy to which they are not legally entitled.

I get it, I really do. For various very legitimate reasons my LL regularly has access to the grounds around our house and it's not uncommon at all for me to be somewhere and suddenly have a stranger ten feet away from me. As I said, it's legitimate, but that doesn't stop it from being jarring. I have almost no sense of privacy as a result, and this might be what your neighbours are struggling with.

Sure, you can get lawyers or the council involved, but it's not going to help neighbourly relations, is it?

Perhaps if you make them feel like they have a bit more control, this will all go away. Knock a day or two in advance and say 'just to let you know we will be pruning for the next few days.' That sort of thing.

If I had advance notice, it would be far less problematic for me, because it would be expected. It's the repeated surprise which is the problem. It just reminds me I would rather be somewhere else. I am sure your neighbours wouldn't have bought a home with such access if they could afford not to. It reminds me I have limited choices. Which is deflating.

Also, if you start getting legak letters written, doesn't that then become a neighbour dispute that you have to declare to future buyers?

Collaborate · 06/07/2023 13:47

They should be able to replace the awning (can't picture how that works as an effective barrier to be honest) with a gate, but they must not lock or obstruct it.

As an alternative (and you might want to suggest this to them) they can fence off a 2m wide strip of land at the rear of your garden and you would agree to a deed of variation changing the route of your ROW to the back of their garden. You would both need the consent of your lenders and probably lawyers involved. Should be at their cost but it's a solution for them.

Sunnydaysarentagiveneveninjuly · 06/07/2023 13:55

Suggest she closes the access off and you will lob all your garden waste over the fence for her to dispose of..
WIN bloody win imo.

Gymtastic · 06/07/2023 14:00

I don’t understand rhe awning either and it seems to be pissing them off.

Madrid67 · 06/07/2023 14:20

why you don't let them know ahead of time when you'll be using the access, for the sake of neighbourly relations? It can't be that often and it may mitigate some of the stress.
There is no reason why OP should do this and lt could be very inconvenient. Right of access means jus that, they have right of access whenever they want. What if they want to use it when their neighbours aren't home or if the neighbour says sorry it's not convenient now, which it sounds as they might. OP shouldn't set a precedent of asking for permission every time they want to use their right of way

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