Unreasonable Neighbours/Pain

[Jeffwest1]

So, long story so please bear with me.

We bought our house over 20 years ago, at the time we bought it the neighbours were lovely, and soon after we moved in they built an extension which we knew about. One of the quirks with the house is that we have a right of access across the garden to a gate, which is noted in the deeds as a 2 meter column from our garden to the gate. When the extension was built they have to re-establish that corridor by adding a gate and step.

Fast forward a few years, and after a messy break up they sold the house, which was about 5 years ago.

The new neighbours at first were fine, until we actually started using the access the following summer to clear our 146 feet of garden with lawn and hedges cuttings, then the problems started.

To slightly give them there due, the decking they took over was rotting and badly in need of repair/replacement, which after lockdown started easing they did do, however, when this was being done, they tried, unsuccessfully to install a fence panel across the gap by essentially lying to us and the gardeners, they told us they did not know what was happening about the gap, and they didn't tell the gardeners it was a legal right of access until we pointed it out when they jumped into our garden and started digging holes for the fence posts :-(

We had another run in a few weeks later, when trying to go through the gate on the other side, the padlock key we had didn't work, neither did the neighbours, they had provided a very cheap padlock and it had broken, he had to bolt cutter it off, and we provided a new one we had bought for our shed. Although through this episode she stated that we couldn't just walk through the garden when we wanted, we had to ask there permission and she would allow us to use the gate when they opened it for us.

This was the first time we spoke to a solicitor on this, who told us to talk to them again as they couldn't do that and they would know full well that it the case.
We did speak to them again, her attitude had changed from the day before and she was far more understanding, and stated she wanted us all to 'get along'

About a month later, we installed a side sliding awning into the gap, which we padlocked from our side, this made using the access easy for us, gave us, and them, privacy.

Since then they have continued to place tables, large unmovable garden umbrellas, trailing hose pipes and cables in the way.

Just over a year ago, they had there first child.

Then, for the first time in almost three years they spoke to us, whilst I was moving hedge trimmings through to my car to take them to the local dump.

She informed me that they were concerned for the safety of there child, the awning was a problem and she deemed it to be unsafe. They want to put up a gate.

I said that's fine, however we wanted to know what they were going to do and how, we were happy for a conversation about it to see what would work best for all.

Speaking to my wife later, we agreed that this was just an excuse to try and again put up a barrier which we would find blocked/padlocked from there side very quickly, while we would listen, we would raise this as part of that conversation.

The following week, a gardener they had employed the year before to build a shed came, told us the plan, essentially it was the same plan as before, a gate, then an additional piece of fence panel to fill the rest of the 2 meter gap, when we asked how it would open and how it would be secured, he was a little unsure about this, but gave some answers, we stated that in reality, the awning worked for us, we did not need to secure it, it rolled into itself so no need to have it hanging in the garden, but we also did not have to have him dig up our garden to place three fence posts in an area we have placed artificial turf and have plant pots with shrubs and plants either side of the gap.

She then got very angry, telling us we had to keep her child safe, the awning was a danger to him, if it was windy and the awning billowed out he could be pushed over by it and badly injured, (For the record the awning bows about about 1/2 foot in the heaviest of winds and auto brakes at that point, not sure what he would be doing, standing by the awning if the wind was that severe?)

Anyway, she then started on that we were being unreasonable, and in fact she could have just done it, or placed a large planter in the way and what were we going to do it about it.

We did mention that they have 60 odd feet of fake grass which surely would be more than safe for him, this set her off again with her child should be able to play and explore all of the garden, (Like us they have 147 feet of garden, 60 feet or so of which they have as fake grass, the decking is about 20 feet, they have a large outside office, approx. 30 feet with a paved area with seating in front, the other 20+ feet is where the extension was placed.).

Clearly we stopped the conversation at that point, but she continued to be rude and quiet offensive.

We have consulted a solicitor again who has suggested we write them a letter, reminding them that we have the right of access which they cannot block, as well as reminding them that they cannot make us change our garden to accommodate them, nor can they change it for us!!

Sorry, this has gone on far longer than I had anticipated.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone else has had similar issues and how they overcame them without having to take the neighbours to court, which I fear eventually we are going to have to do.

Where's the awning in that picture? I don't understand the awning bit.
I think a gate would be a better solution if they have a small child.
But of course they have no right to padlock any gate that is installed.
Can you draw a diagram because even with the picture of the deeds I can't work out where this access across their garden is?

I think you really do need a solicitor's letter because no matter what the finer details of awnings/gates/where the access is - they have no right to block your right of way and if they did not want a right of way through their garden, they should not have bought the property.

I imagine when they bought the house they convinced themselves you would hardly ever use the access. how
There’s no way I’d buy a house with access like this but assume they got a bargain price for the inconvenience of it.

How often do you use it and what do you use it for?

so the access is right against the house? No wonder it makes them uncomfortable.

Well tough luck, they should've considered that before buying.

Is the wood the awning is attached to yours? If you installed a gate then that would mean they couldn't fit a fence panel there, and would kill their argument about their wind-fragile child. Plus if it opens into your garden they can't block it with umbrella etc

Actually, every house I have lived in or seen has the ROW right up behind the house. I have never seen a ROW which was at the far end of the garden, If you read the original post the first NDN built an extension and the ROW was rerouted to its present position.

every house I have lived in or seen has the ROW right up behind the house

Yes, me too. The ones I've seen, the usual solution to kids and dogs is to fence the opposite side of the ROW from the house, to make the remaining garden secure.

I'm guessing the awning is the grey fabric across the gap. Something like this

VOUNOT Side Awning Retractable, Outdoor Privacy Screen for Garden, Balcony, Terrace, 180 x 300 cm, Grey amzn.eu/d/2WJPGfK

Op o can kind of see their point about it not being the safest for their little one. Kids can get themselves into ridiculous situations and I could see hands or legs getting trapped or them falling down the stairs if they decided to play with it.
I think you would be safer with a gate. But surely a low gate would be able to be fitted to the current posts?

Oh I agree they should have known what they were getting into. I just also understand why it makes them uncomfortable. Any offers of adjustments are just for good neighbor relationships, not because op does not have ROW.

How often do you use it and what do you use it for
OP uses it to dispose of garden rubbish, trimming their hedge etc
But I don't think it really matters how often or why they use it. The deeds clearly show a right of way and the NDN will have known this when they bought the house. They can't now deny or restrict that right of way even if OP wanted to use it every day

Yikes, the ROW is right by their back door?! I'm not surprised they don't like it, but I'm also amazed they bought a house knowing ROW was so close and regularly used by you. You might've already said this, but why can't the gap be moved to the rear of both gardens so you just walk along the top and not right by their house?

I can also see why they think the awning is dangerous, because their child could potentially slip under the gap.

I’m not surprised they bought the house knowing about it. There was a recent post where the OPoster was in a similar position, looking to buy a house which had a right of way across the garden, and at least half the people replying said they’d be happy to buy it.

I think knowing how often you use it and what for and when gives an idea of the impact.
If you're using it once a week to take bins out is very different to using it every day, maybe in the evening when they are relaxing in the garden, to take a small amount of garden waste through.
Of course op has row to do whatever but if you're going the later I'd think you were a dick neighbour.

Sorry but I disagree with you @MidwifeAMA , if you buy a property with a ROW then that ROW can be used at any time. If the OP doesn't use it if the NDN are in the garden then he will soon be unable to use it unless the NDN say he can. It will be inconvenient for all sorts of reasons. Its the penalty of buying a property with a ROW and yes I have lived in houses with a ROW. Currently I live in a house with an alley going between the terraces, it can get busy and noisy, that's just the way it is.

@loislovesstewie actually as it is on the deeds I think they are safe.

The reality is they bought the property knowing there was a ROW and that will have been reflected in the price.

I understand why they don't like it.

The idea of your NDN being able to walk right past the back of your house at any time is incredibly invasive.

However, this is exactly why many other people would have passed on buying this house at the outset.

Legally they need to keep the access clear. You technically need to do nothing to appease them. You also should not give up your ROW as this will impact the value of your home.

However, neighbour disputes can cause a lot of stress for all involved, so I'd be tempted to find a resolution.

I'm not at all clear from the diagrams why the access could not be moved to the bottom end of the garden which would be less intrusive and could theoretically be fenced off.

Yes they would lose some land, but arguably the privacy this would bring would more than offset this.

Alternatively, if the awning (fabric gate in effect) is a concern I see no reason not to install a gate.

However this needs to be locked from your side and not theirs to ensure you have access at all times.

Personally I'd offer to have a gate installed (at their expense) that locks on your side and say you'd be happy to give 24hrs advance notice of when you needed access as a courtesy (stress the courtesy as opposed to necessity).

In return they need to keep the access clear at all times.

Ok I think I understand something I didn't previously.

You control the gap/awning between you an NDN.

However, there is another gate the NDN padlocks that restricts your access to the alleyway ie between their garden and the alley that they have previously stopped you using and a padlock had to be cut off.

Is this correct?

As such you prefer the fabric gate/awning you have as it doesn't provide the opportunity for them to lock their side?

I'm still at a loss why the access can't be moved to the bottom of the garden though which would make far more sense.

If it's like my old house access can't be moved because the row is across the garden and out a passageway between the neighbours and their neighbours. Moving the access would just lengthen the path taken in using the row because you would be walking across the bottom of the garden and then up it's entire length. The neighbours are clearly idiots or deliberately being difficult. If the former the solicitor letter might help. If the latter it won't. Personally I'd be using the row daily morning and night for a good few months. If at any time they'd obstructed it I'd be insisting that access was immediately given. If they want to be arses about you using something you're entitled to do, I'd be an arse right back.

If I was your NDN I would put up 2 fences flanking the blue access route (from the awning to the side gate) with lockable gates for them to access both sides of their garden. The fences would not need to be too high (say about 3/4 feet) and could be quite decorative with an arch in the middle, framing a view to the rear of their garden.
They may feel they are losing the passageway, but I can’t see how else they are going to achieve the security they desire.

I would get your solicitor to write to them. But also find out what the consequences are for restricting your access have that stated in the letter. Also find out if you are able to sue them for the cost of using your solicitor. Let them know they can’t stop you using the access, and what is going to happen if they continue. Hopefully they get the letter looked at and are told being idiots will potentially cost them.

Could you photocopy the deeds and highlight the relevant information. Go and talk to them. Let them know you want to be reasonable, but they can’t block the access. You don’t use it often and are happy to send a quick text message before using it. Since you will be living next door you want to try and work it out, but if it’s blocked again you will take them to court and it will cost them.

We bought a house with access, it can be really problematic if you have difficult neighbours.
My advice would be either to move the access to a more convenient location- & I don't think that the council would need to be involved in this agreement; or to move.
I wouldn't go to court because it will stay with the house & you'll have problems selling it when you move on, & it really won't help your relationship with your neighbour

Are you suggesting the OP moves? He's lived there donkeys years why should he?

Will try and condense some responses.

We cant use the back of the garden, at the bottom end they have built an outside office, there is no other exit out of the ndn garden other than the alley way between their house and their ndn house.

The awning, ah, the awning.. We installed it after they tried to put up a fence panel when the decking was re-done. They had not told the people doing the decking we had the right of access, and they thought the gap was there only because the original decking had crumbled. They jumped into our garden and started digging holes to place three fence posts to hold the fence panel.

When we challenged this it was what the builder told us. This was the first time they actively tried to block the access.

We reasoned, if we put up a gate, or allowed them to do so based on this, we would find it padlocked or in some other way blocked and we would have no option but to spend time and a lot of money getting this removed.

The awning we could and can control, (This was some three years ago so well before they had baby), and there was no way they could add any form of bolt or padlock to it.

We did try and give them advance warning in the past, however we found an array of plant pots, hose reels and other fun suddenly placed in the way, as well as the wheelie bin and recycle boxes being moved to behind the gate on the other side, as well as the large umbrella being put up, and them going out.

However, I would also say, as we now have to book slots at the dump, if I am cutting hedges/grass at 10am in the morning, it is a fair bet that I would want to take it through as I have a booking either that day or within the next few days, this really should be warning enough.

From a website I was pointed to by the last solicitor we spoke to last year.

Once created, losing a private right of way is very difficult. Typically, losing a right of way happens in one of three ways:

• The parties involved expressly agree to extinguish the right by entering into a formal deed of release.
• The person with the benefit of the right demonstrates by their actions that they intend to abandon it.
• Similar to abandonment, a legal principle known as ‘estoppel’ may terminate a right of way. Estoppel happens if the person over whose land the right is exercised has relied upon the other person’s conduct, indicating their intention to give it up.

But the courts have repeatedly held that a mere failure to exercise a right of way is not in itself enough to lose it. After all, why would a landowner give up rights over another person’s land? Particularly when those rights benefit their own land when there is no advantage to them in doing so. Indeed, in the case of Benn v Hardinge [1992], the court held there was no presumption of abandonment, although the right of way went unused for 175 years!

They did also mention as they are ex council houses, ndn for 30 years ours for just slightly longer than that, the council would need to be informed as well, and may refuse even if we and neighbour agree to it's removal, which we clearly will not be doing..

Some people are just nuts….

Your neighbours bought a property that included a row from next door…your house. They can’t just decide now that they don’t want you to have that right.
Their solicitor would have pointed it out to them…

I would send a polite but firm letter stating quite simply that you have right of way and will continue to assess that right. And pointing out that it is also a fire exit, as pointed out by the local fire service.

All this giving them notice is rubbish. They bought their house knowing you could walk through at any time. It’s their issue not yours, and if they don’t like it they can move.