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Unreasonable Neighbours/Pain

114 replies

Jeffwest1 · 06/07/2023 12:16

So, long story so please bear with me.

We bought our house over 20 years ago, at the time we bought it the neighbours were lovely, and soon after we moved in they built an extension which we knew about. One of the quirks with the house is that we have a right of access across the garden to a gate, which is noted in the deeds as a 2 meter column from our garden to the gate. When the extension was built they have to re-establish that corridor by adding a gate and step.

Fast forward a few years, and after a messy break up they sold the house, which was about 5 years ago.

The new neighbours at first were fine, until we actually started using the access the following summer to clear our 146 feet of garden with lawn and hedges cuttings, then the problems started.

To slightly give them there due, the decking they took over was rotting and badly in need of repair/replacement, which after lockdown started easing they did do, however, when this was being done, they tried, unsuccessfully to install a fence panel across the gap by essentially lying to us and the gardeners, they told us they did not know what was happening about the gap, and they didn't tell the gardeners it was a legal right of access until we pointed it out when they jumped into our garden and started digging holes for the fence posts :-(

We had another run in a few weeks later, when trying to go through the gate on the other side, the padlock key we had didn't work, neither did the neighbours, they had provided a very cheap padlock and it had broken, he had to bolt cutter it off, and we provided a new one we had bought for our shed. Although through this episode she stated that we couldn't just walk through the garden when we wanted, we had to ask there permission and she would allow us to use the gate when they opened it for us.

This was the first time we spoke to a solicitor on this, who told us to talk to them again as they couldn't do that and they would know full well that it the case.
We did speak to them again, her attitude had changed from the day before and she was far more understanding, and stated she wanted us all to 'get along'

About a month later, we installed a side sliding awning into the gap, which we padlocked from our side, this made using the access easy for us, gave us, and them, privacy.

Since then they have continued to place tables, large unmovable garden umbrellas, trailing hose pipes and cables in the way.

Just over a year ago, they had there first child.

Then, for the first time in almost three years they spoke to us, whilst I was moving hedge trimmings through to my car to take them to the local dump.

She informed me that they were concerned for the safety of there child, the awning was a problem and she deemed it to be unsafe. They want to put up a gate.

I said that's fine, however we wanted to know what they were going to do and how, we were happy for a conversation about it to see what would work best for all.

Speaking to my wife later, we agreed that this was just an excuse to try and again put up a barrier which we would find blocked/padlocked from there side very quickly, while we would listen, we would raise this as part of that conversation.

The following week, a gardener they had employed the year before to build a shed came, told us the plan, essentially it was the same plan as before, a gate, then an additional piece of fence panel to fill the rest of the 2 meter gap, when we asked how it would open and how it would be secured, he was a little unsure about this, but gave some answers, we stated that in reality, the awning worked for us, we did not need to secure it, it rolled into itself so no need to have it hanging in the garden, but we also did not have to have him dig up our garden to place three fence posts in an area we have placed artificial turf and have plant pots with shrubs and plants either side of the gap.

She then got very angry, telling us we had to keep her child safe, the awning was a danger to him, if it was windy and the awning billowed out he could be pushed over by it and badly injured, (For the record the awning bows about about 1/2 foot in the heaviest of winds and auto brakes at that point, not sure what he would be doing, standing by the awning if the wind was that severe?)

Anyway, she then started on that we were being unreasonable, and in fact she could have just done it, or placed a large planter in the way and what were we going to do it about it.

We did mention that they have 60 odd feet of fake grass which surely would be more than safe for him, this set her off again with her child should be able to play and explore all of the garden, (Like us they have 147 feet of garden, 60 feet or so of which they have as fake grass, the decking is about 20 feet, they have a large outside office, approx. 30 feet with a paved area with seating in front, the other 20+ feet is where the extension was placed.).

Clearly we stopped the conversation at that point, but she continued to be rude and quiet offensive.

We have consulted a solicitor again who has suggested we write them a letter, reminding them that we have the right of access which they cannot block, as well as reminding them that they cannot make us change our garden to accommodate them, nor can they change it for us!!

Sorry, this has gone on far longer than I had anticipated.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone else has had similar issues and how they overcame them without having to take the neighbours to court, which I fear eventually we are going to have to do.

OP posts:
Inkpotlover · 06/07/2023 14:28

Madrid67 · 06/07/2023 14:20

why you don't let them know ahead of time when you'll be using the access, for the sake of neighbourly relations? It can't be that often and it may mitigate some of the stress.
There is no reason why OP should do this and lt could be very inconvenient. Right of access means jus that, they have right of access whenever they want. What if they want to use it when their neighbours aren't home or if the neighbour says sorry it's not convenient now, which it sounds as they might. OP shouldn't set a precedent of asking for permission every time they want to use their right of way

No, OP doesn't have to do this at all, but given how this has the potential to blow up into a legal battle and ugly row, isn't it worth considering? I'm not saying they should ask the neighbours when it's convenient, I'm saying tell them. Just text to say on x day we will be doing this, after sending solicitor's letter reminding NDN they have ROW.

OnToTheNextOneOntoTheNextOne · 06/07/2023 14:34

Is there a reason you can't text them when you get the strimmer out: will be through with some garden waste later.

I agree you should not have to ask permission, but to say you are going to exercise your right of access at any time without any notice is not very neighbourly when they have a small child.

Sometimes there is a difference between what you can legally do and what is the right thing to do.

Lellochip · 06/07/2023 14:38

If OP have ROA they could be using multiple times a day, having to text and wait for 'permission' they don't need everytime would be ridiculous. Neighbour bought a house with this set up, they have to suck it up.

OnToTheNextOneOntoTheNextOne · 06/07/2023 14:46

I wouldn't wait for permission - but I would text to inform them. It's just considerate.

And I wouldn't feel the need to be specific about time/ amount of trips through the garden. Just: I'll be using the access today as I'm gardening.

The same way I might inform neighbours if I'm having a noisy party or a bonfire to burn garden waste.
.
And I don't think bringing garden waste through the garden needs to be a daily thing, nor is it an urgent task.

Sometimes I forget to put my recycling in my bin out front until late at night...do I dump in noisily into my bin next to my neighbour's house because 'its my right'. If course I don't! I wait until a reasonable time of day because I'm a neighbourly person.

schloss · 06/07/2023 14:48

Just typed a reply only for it to go before posting it! Trying again!

ROW can cause issues especially when there are a change in circumstances, in this instance with your neighbour having a child - however from your info it sounds as though they are using it as a convenient excuse to instigate their original plan. As difficult as it is, always keep all communication factual, keep emotions out of it, legal ROW are all about facts, not fitting in with changing circumstances. I am sure you have already done some of the following however I would do the following:

Download, from Land Registry, the title plans and associate documentation for both your and the neighbours properties so the legal ROW is fully available.

Ensure you fully understand the ROW in the legal sense and ask a solicitor to draught a short, factual letter stating you have the legal right to do XWY and your will exercise that right. Do not offer any compromise. If there are any restrictions to the ROW make sure the solicitor states you will not exceed your rights - this shows you are being reasonable.

Even if you and your legal representative understand the ROW, post the question on gardenlaw.co.uk - they have a lot of experience on exactly your situation.

Check if you have legal cover on your house insurance.

Sundaefraise · 06/07/2023 14:55

I don’t get the bit about the awning at all. Do you have an awning across their land? I don’t think I would like that either. The access is unfortunate. I can see why they wouldn’t like it, but it sounds like you need it and are entitled to it.

cocksstrideintheevening · 06/07/2023 15:25

Do they actually understand you have right of access? The rest of it sounds like fluff.

Jeffwest1 · 06/07/2023 15:31

GrannyAchingsShepherdsHut · 06/07/2023 13:24

Would they and you be willing to move the access to the very far end of the garden, and they can then fence it off completely from their garden if they wish to?

It's entirely possible their solicitor didn't explain it properly to them when they bought it, and has just said 'there's a right of way'. I see posts on here all the time from people whose neighbours have a right of way and they want them to only use it on bin day or ask for permission first or whatever.

I'd think a letter from your solicitor would be more likely to be listened to than you writing down what you've already said. They're not listening to you, writing it down won't change that.

I don't understand the awning situation. Is it entirely in your garden?

Will try and explain, there is an alleyway between the ndn house and there ndn, the roa lists the corridor as between our garden and the alleyway, moving the gate would then mean walking down the garden to get to the alleyway, Our solicitor did suggest that but then understood why we couldn't..

OP posts:
Jeffwest1 · 06/07/2023 15:33

Yes, the awning is fully in our garden.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 06/07/2023 15:34

They are being ridiculous about their child.

They put in some tall gates with heavy duty auto catches on, DC safe, ROW still usable. Written agreement is that the gates are removed when the youngest is aged 8 or similar.

Heronwatcher · 06/07/2023 15:34

I also agree that I’m not completely clear about the setup, but couldn’t you agree that they can fence/ gate their garden as they wish but the access must be the required width and gate must never be permanently locked (if they’re worried about their DC they could have a high bolt which you could simply slide across by putting your hand over). Get this in writing. I agree you’re entitled to access whenever you want but I also think she’s entitled to have the whole garden safe for her DC.

Reugny · 06/07/2023 15:36

I wouldn't wait for permission - but I would text to inform them. It's just considerate.

@OnToTheNextOneOntoTheNextOne No.

They would use it as an excuse to say see it as the OP asking for permission and would simply reply "No it isn't convenient" which is their plan.

Also if they were on holiday in the US (or some other random location) the text message could arrive in the early hours of the morning and cause them more disturbance.

Jeffwest1 · 06/07/2023 15:36

OnToTheNextOneOntoTheNextOne · 06/07/2023 14:34

Is there a reason you can't text them when you get the strimmer out: will be through with some garden waste later.

I agree you should not have to ask permission, but to say you are going to exercise your right of access at any time without any notice is not very neighbourly when they have a small child.

Sometimes there is a difference between what you can legally do and what is the right thing to do.

In essence I might well agree with you, however, in the main, to try and cause issues we only really use it when they are have gone out. However, there have been times where we have been clearing up when they have come back, this also means we are having to sore the garden waste and wait for them to go out, which we cannot know when it is going to happen.

OP posts:
Jeffwest1 · 06/07/2023 15:38

Sundaefraise · 06/07/2023 14:55

I don’t get the bit about the awning at all. Do you have an awning across their land? I don’t think I would like that either. The access is unfortunate. I can see why they wouldn’t like it, but it sounds like you need it and are entitled to it.

I will try and post a picture of the awning, but no, it is not over or on their land.

OP posts:
MichelleScarn · 06/07/2023 15:42

Will try and explain, there is an alleyway between the ndn house and there ndn, the roa lists the corridor as between our garden and the alleyway, moving the gate would then mean walking down the garden to get to the alleyway, Our solicitor did suggest that but then understood why we couldn't..

Walking down your own garden to dispose of garden waste or theirs rather than use Row?

Diagram needed definitely!

Jeffwest1 · 06/07/2023 15:42

Hopefully you can see this. we live at @12, the neighbours are @11

The blue line shows the alleyway between 11 and 10, and the right of access across the NDN garden into our garden.

This is a photocopy of the deeds we have, we are aware that the NDN have exactly the same entry in there deeds as well

Unreasonable Neighbours/Pain
OP posts:
Jeffwest1 · 06/07/2023 15:44

Reugny · 06/07/2023 15:36

I wouldn't wait for permission - but I would text to inform them. It's just considerate.

@OnToTheNextOneOntoTheNextOne No.

They would use it as an excuse to say see it as the OP asking for permission and would simply reply "No it isn't convenient" which is their plan.

Also if they were on holiday in the US (or some other random location) the text message could arrive in the early hours of the morning and cause them more disturbance.

Our concern would also be that they would put up the very large umbrella they have right in the corridor and then go out, meaning we could not use the access when we wanted to.

OP posts:
Jeffwest1 · 06/07/2023 15:51

cocksstrideintheevening · 06/07/2023 15:25

Do they actually understand you have right of access? The rest of it sounds like fluff.

They do, they mentioned it when the invited us over for a drink a few weeks after they moved in.

OP posts:
Jeffwest1 · 06/07/2023 15:59

Again hopefully you can see this.

The awning goes across the gap, it is secured on the left hand side of the picture to a post which we have added a padlock to. On the right had side the awning holder sits on a post. The umbrella behind is one of the biggest you can by with the base unit being the biggest as well.

Unreasonable Neighbours/Pain
OP posts:
Reugny · 06/07/2023 16:02

OP what type of gate are you allowed to have?

By that I mean height, whether it can have a bolt or not, material it can be made off, etc.

DataNotLore · 06/07/2023 16:06

Jeffwest1 · 06/07/2023 15:59

Again hopefully you can see this.

The awning goes across the gap, it is secured on the left hand side of the picture to a post which we have added a padlock to. On the right had side the awning holder sits on a post. The umbrella behind is one of the biggest you can by with the base unit being the biggest as well.

That's a panel board with an umbrella behind it.

Where is the awning?

Stop discussing this with them. They have plastic grass do clearly comprehension isn't their strong point.

You have right of access. The end.

cocksstrideintheevening · 06/07/2023 16:12

I'm even more confused. We have the same set up so it's a shared side access and you have access across the back of their garden that they're blocking, is that right?

schloss · 06/07/2023 16:14

Forget about awnings and umbrellas and what they may do, assert your rights of the ROW in writing and advise you will continue to use them as per the legal definition, or get a solicitor to do but only once you are 100% sure of the rights. Always best to know your exact position before defining it.

The sooner the above is done, the better otherwise the whole situation is going to become more emotive and muddied.

Ponderingwindow · 06/07/2023 16:33

so the access is right against the house? No wonder it makes them uncomfortable.

first, I would ask them if it would work better for them if the access was at the back and you walked up the length of the garden. Yes, you would be in the garden longer, but you wouldn’t be walking right across their house.

second, a cloth privacy cover is a silly battle to fight. A gate will function perfectly well there and be much simpler to open and close. It will also
prevent a child (or maybe later a pet) crawling under

MidwifeAMA · 06/07/2023 16:42

Oooh so when you say awning, you mean a pull across fabric gate? How is that going to injure their child ?