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Unreasonable Neighbours/Pain

114 replies

Jeffwest1 · 06/07/2023 12:16

So, long story so please bear with me.

We bought our house over 20 years ago, at the time we bought it the neighbours were lovely, and soon after we moved in they built an extension which we knew about. One of the quirks with the house is that we have a right of access across the garden to a gate, which is noted in the deeds as a 2 meter column from our garden to the gate. When the extension was built they have to re-establish that corridor by adding a gate and step.

Fast forward a few years, and after a messy break up they sold the house, which was about 5 years ago.

The new neighbours at first were fine, until we actually started using the access the following summer to clear our 146 feet of garden with lawn and hedges cuttings, then the problems started.

To slightly give them there due, the decking they took over was rotting and badly in need of repair/replacement, which after lockdown started easing they did do, however, when this was being done, they tried, unsuccessfully to install a fence panel across the gap by essentially lying to us and the gardeners, they told us they did not know what was happening about the gap, and they didn't tell the gardeners it was a legal right of access until we pointed it out when they jumped into our garden and started digging holes for the fence posts :-(

We had another run in a few weeks later, when trying to go through the gate on the other side, the padlock key we had didn't work, neither did the neighbours, they had provided a very cheap padlock and it had broken, he had to bolt cutter it off, and we provided a new one we had bought for our shed. Although through this episode she stated that we couldn't just walk through the garden when we wanted, we had to ask there permission and she would allow us to use the gate when they opened it for us.

This was the first time we spoke to a solicitor on this, who told us to talk to them again as they couldn't do that and they would know full well that it the case.
We did speak to them again, her attitude had changed from the day before and she was far more understanding, and stated she wanted us all to 'get along'

About a month later, we installed a side sliding awning into the gap, which we padlocked from our side, this made using the access easy for us, gave us, and them, privacy.

Since then they have continued to place tables, large unmovable garden umbrellas, trailing hose pipes and cables in the way.

Just over a year ago, they had there first child.

Then, for the first time in almost three years they spoke to us, whilst I was moving hedge trimmings through to my car to take them to the local dump.

She informed me that they were concerned for the safety of there child, the awning was a problem and she deemed it to be unsafe. They want to put up a gate.

I said that's fine, however we wanted to know what they were going to do and how, we were happy for a conversation about it to see what would work best for all.

Speaking to my wife later, we agreed that this was just an excuse to try and again put up a barrier which we would find blocked/padlocked from there side very quickly, while we would listen, we would raise this as part of that conversation.

The following week, a gardener they had employed the year before to build a shed came, told us the plan, essentially it was the same plan as before, a gate, then an additional piece of fence panel to fill the rest of the 2 meter gap, when we asked how it would open and how it would be secured, he was a little unsure about this, but gave some answers, we stated that in reality, the awning worked for us, we did not need to secure it, it rolled into itself so no need to have it hanging in the garden, but we also did not have to have him dig up our garden to place three fence posts in an area we have placed artificial turf and have plant pots with shrubs and plants either side of the gap.

She then got very angry, telling us we had to keep her child safe, the awning was a danger to him, if it was windy and the awning billowed out he could be pushed over by it and badly injured, (For the record the awning bows about about 1/2 foot in the heaviest of winds and auto brakes at that point, not sure what he would be doing, standing by the awning if the wind was that severe?)

Anyway, she then started on that we were being unreasonable, and in fact she could have just done it, or placed a large planter in the way and what were we going to do it about it.

We did mention that they have 60 odd feet of fake grass which surely would be more than safe for him, this set her off again with her child should be able to play and explore all of the garden, (Like us they have 147 feet of garden, 60 feet or so of which they have as fake grass, the decking is about 20 feet, they have a large outside office, approx. 30 feet with a paved area with seating in front, the other 20+ feet is where the extension was placed.).

Clearly we stopped the conversation at that point, but she continued to be rude and quiet offensive.

We have consulted a solicitor again who has suggested we write them a letter, reminding them that we have the right of access which they cannot block, as well as reminding them that they cannot make us change our garden to accommodate them, nor can they change it for us!!

Sorry, this has gone on far longer than I had anticipated.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone else has had similar issues and how they overcame them without having to take the neighbours to court, which I fear eventually we are going to have to do.

OP posts:
watermeloncougar · 07/07/2023 09:05

They're being cheeky bastards! You legally have a right of way. They know this, and bought their house knowing it. Absolutely don't give way at all, don't enter into any kind of arrangement where you inform them if you're going to use it.

The only downside to you is that if it becomes a dispute (eg if you take action against them because they block it) then legally you would have to declare the dispute if you want to sell your house. However, as disputes go, this is something that shouldn't be too tricky to resolve because there's no way on earth your NDN has a leg to stand on. A dispute about a NDN who blasts out music all day would probably put far more people off! In your case it's basically the NDN not liking the fact they bought a property with a right of way through it!

LadyDanburysHat · 07/07/2023 09:09

I think as others have mentioned, it is worth getting a solicitor to write the letter. You can write to them, but if it comes from a solicitor maybe they will take it more seriously.

SoupDragon · 07/07/2023 09:17

That awning is awful. The neighbour is right that it isn't at all safe for a child. I do think replacing it with a gate will go some way to restoring neighbourly relations. Make it clear that if the gate is obstructed in any way that you would be putting the awning back though.

watermeloncougar · 07/07/2023 09:22

The awning seems far less of a potential danger to their kid than their fuck-off huge umbrella!

Anyway, it's entirely up to the OP what he puts in his garden. It's the NDN responsibility to keep their own kid safe, they're just being cheeky fuckers because they bought a house with a ROW and now want to pretend they didn't!

SquishyGloopyBum · 07/07/2023 09:42

Why don't you put a gate up in a way that it has a lock only from your side that you then control?

They can't argue the safety aspect then.

I'd get the solicitor to send a letter reminding them of the legal right but in the interests of moving forward and addressing safety concerns you will be erecting a gate that is your property and is not to be blocked off by them installing locks etc.

Also worth checking if the access route has to be kept clear at all times.

Escapetothecatshome · 07/07/2023 10:07

My last house had Right of way similar to yours, at the bottom of the garden which led through my neighbours back garden out through the street for wheelie bin access and garden waste etc.
It can become a nightmare and actually they can make you feel quite uncomfortable.
You've lived in your property a long time I would be the adult and take control of this situation, go round and explain that you are going to continue to use the access as is your right, and that this has never been a problem until now.
Surely a sturdy wooden gate with a latch high up out of reach - no padlock, would be safe for a small child.
Phoning her or texting her when you need to use the access is not realistic, and you end up having ridiculous conversations
"is it alright if I lug some grass clippings through your garden, on the full moon next Wednesday between 2.47 pm and 3.02 pm, - don't worry I'll be quick !

I wouldn't even entertain this you don't need permission - maybe print of the rights of covenants , just to reinforce the issue.
Your neighbour is someone whose bought the house knowing you have ROW and didn't think it was going to be a big issue and she's now decided to bully you into not using it. Simply Carry on using it.

Goodluck x

watermeloncougar · 07/07/2023 10:09

@SquishyGloopyBum the OP explained that the awning is fixed to a lock their side, so essentially it's performing the same function as a gate. The issue here is not what the OP chooses to put across on their side of the boundary, it's that the NDN doesn't want there to be a ROW. Tough shit; they bought the house knowing it's there.

Good point about the access; I imagine as it's a ROW that means it shouldn't be obstructed in any way, but worth getting a solicitor to check how this would actually be worded legally. It's clear the NDN needs reminding of what a ROW actually is, and whether they need to keep it clear at all times. The fact the fire service identified this as a fire escape route adds weight as well. Even better if the solicitor can add that into any letter too - obstructing a ROW is bad enough but obstructing an escape route raises the seriousness

Jeffwest1 · 07/07/2023 10:11

SquishyGloopyBum · 07/07/2023 09:42

Why don't you put a gate up in a way that it has a lock only from your side that you then control?

They can't argue the safety aspect then.

I'd get the solicitor to send a letter reminding them of the legal right but in the interests of moving forward and addressing safety concerns you will be erecting a gate that is your property and is not to be blocked off by them installing locks etc.

Also worth checking if the access route has to be kept clear at all times.

The simple truth is, we do not believe that if we put up the gate or they do, that they won't put a padlock on it even if we ask nicely.

They win, and they can stall any court proceedings for as long as they can.

My understanding from previous conversation with Solicitor is that the route would be some thing like this.

a) Letter from Solicitor asking them to remove padlock, reminding then they can't block or impede use of access
b) Second letter, this time detailing what can happen with non compliance, i.e. fine, imprisonment for not non compliance
c) Third and final letter the same as above
d) Take them to court, told to remove barrier
e) Taken to court for non compliance, fined, told to remove barrier
f) New court date, again fined, told to remove barrier with threat of prison
etc etc etc

This could go in for months if not years, and all with us not being able to use the access.

OP posts:
Lellochip · 07/07/2023 10:12

It's your gate, just cut any padlocks off?

Jeffwest1 · 07/07/2023 10:15

Lellochip · 07/07/2023 10:12

It's your gate, just cut any padlocks off?

Difficult to do if you can't reach them. If it was me I would place them just out of arms reach.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 07/07/2023 10:33

Remind them in writing the law around the ROW and they need to secure the rest of their grades for their child to use.

If the are so concerned about the safety of the awning (they aren't) offer to remove it so the whole gap is completely open and they have to deal with the DC coming into your garden.

SoupDragon · 07/07/2023 10:34

Jeffwest1 · 07/07/2023 10:15

Difficult to do if you can't reach them. If it was me I would place them just out of arms reach.

I would use ladders and climb over to remove any lock.

make sure the gate opens into your garden so they can't just put something in front of it.

watermeloncougar · 07/07/2023 10:42

@Jeffwest1 this sort of thing makes me mad that legally, it can be such a painful process for the innocent party.

In effect, your NDN is trying to take something which belongs to you - ie: your ROW. They are forcing you into having to dispute their action. Which then puts you at a disadvantage because you have to go through a legal process and risk devaluing your house because you have to declare all this if you sell. There should be much speedier and bigger financial penalties for assholes who do this sort of thing. No one can choose their neighbours, yet they have the power to make your life a misery and if you try to stop them, you risk devaluing your own property. It sucks and I really feel for you. But that said, you must hold firm on this. It'll be worse if you don't, because if you give up your ROW or enter into any kind of unofficial "obligation" to inform them before you use it, you're only storing up trouble for the future. That sort of thing could screw up any future sale for you.

SquishyGloopyBum · 07/07/2023 10:42

Ok but if they want to put a gate up anyway, it's better that it's in your control. So opening inwards, your own lock. I'd also cut off any locks on their side. You can't be accused of trespass as it's your right of way.

Jeffwest1 · 07/07/2023 10:51

SquishyGloopyBum · 07/07/2023 10:42

Ok but if they want to put a gate up anyway, it's better that it's in your control. So opening inwards, your own lock. I'd also cut off any locks on their side. You can't be accused of trespass as it's your right of way.

Would it be under our control if they put padlocks/bolts on it, no not really, they would then hold us to ransom, both actually and figuratively.

We would have to spend a lot of money getting letters written and potentially taking them to court, while they can sit back, do nothing knowing they can wait months if not longer, i.e. just before they have to pay anything, until the remove whatever they have put in the way.

Yes, let them put up a gate at there expense does seem on the surface a good idea, and yes it will solve the issue of them being pissed off with the awning, but it throws open a whole heap of new problems which we are just not wanting to go through.

OP posts:
watermeloncougar · 07/07/2023 11:04

It feels like some people aren't reading the OP! The cheeky NDN first of all tried putting a fence panel permanently across the gap! Also told the OP that they can't use the ROW whenever they like, they have to ask permission!

Clearly the NDN is a w*er who needs putting in their place with absolute firmness.

@Jeffwest1 just continue to use it, when you want. In fact I'd be tempted to start using it more, not just for clearing stuff from the garden. It reinforces the point that this is your right. If they block it with obstacles, move them (without damaging them) and then consider the solicitor's letter. You can't reason with people who are this entitled and frankly who are trying to bully you into giving them something which belongs to you. Try to keep the heat out of it, don't get drawn into discussion, just show by your actions that this is your right of way.

loislovesstewie · 07/07/2023 11:16

As others have said, just keep using it, exactly as many times a day as you need. If you show them a millimetre of giving in to them they will want more. They are in the wrong, not you.

Inkpotlover · 07/07/2023 11:21

Jeffwest1 · 07/07/2023 10:15

Difficult to do if you can't reach them. If it was me I would place them just out of arms reach.

If you've got right of way and it's your gate, couldn't you climb over sticking to the area that's ROW with ladders and remove the padlock with bolt cutters?

Madamecastafiore · 07/07/2023 11:37

Get an electric saw and saw a hole around the fixings next time and just go about your business. They're fucking bonkers and have obviously picked this as their hill to die on. I'd assist them in the dying. If they took you to court you can just say they've blocked your right of and you're asserting your rights. I wonder how many gates you'd have to ruin before they took you seriously??

Stuff giving away the access too, you'd find it harder to sell your house if there was no access to the garden other than through your house.

watermeloncougar · 07/07/2023 11:41

I think doing something which causes damage (eg removing a lock with bolt cutters) could be dodgy, so I'd get legal advice before doing this. Of course morally of course the OP should be allowed to do it, but unfortunately the law can be weird about stuff like this. Better to just stick firmly within the legal route, keep using the ROW, in fact I'd use it daily to make the point. The NDN won't win this. It's a pain that the process could take ages but just keep going, and also get it in writing from the solicitor that you'll take action to recover any costs you incur through the process. That's the sort of language that speaks to bullies like this. They won't give a shit if you try to reason with them like an adult, but if they realise they could incur legal costs by dragging it out.

Lellochip · 07/07/2023 11:57

watermeloncougar · 07/07/2023 11:41

I think doing something which causes damage (eg removing a lock with bolt cutters) could be dodgy, so I'd get legal advice before doing this. Of course morally of course the OP should be allowed to do it, but unfortunately the law can be weird about stuff like this. Better to just stick firmly within the legal route, keep using the ROW, in fact I'd use it daily to make the point. The NDN won't win this. It's a pain that the process could take ages but just keep going, and also get it in writing from the solicitor that you'll take action to recover any costs you incur through the process. That's the sort of language that speaks to bullies like this. They won't give a shit if you try to reason with them like an adult, but if they realise they could incur legal costs by dragging it out.

Removing a lock off the neighbour's gate would be potentially dodgy, removing a lock off their own gate wouldn't be because a) surely you can't lock someone in their own garden and b) what are they going to do about it? Take legal action over a £2 padlock that they illegally attached to someone else's property?

I'd stop catastrophising about years of court action at this point and just start using the ROW by any legal means necessary. Put a gate in if you think that will appease them re. the awning. Just make sure it's on your side, and opens inwards. If they lock that, remove it. If they block your path, walk round or move their stuff. If they lock the other gate, then knock on their back door and insist they unlock it immediately. You need to explain to them you will be using your access, so they can make it easy for you to nip through without disturbing them, or they can make it into a palaver, every single time.

Legal action is always an option, but it's worth trying to annoy them into submission first. Realistically, how often are you using it?

Jeffwest1 · 07/07/2023 12:10

How often do we use it?

Depends on how much we need to cut the grass and hedges.

Maybe no more than a couple of time a month though spring till early autumn, then usually nothing after that.

That is kind of the issue, it is not as if we are running a business and we are constantly using it.

We don't use it as an entrance or exit every day, and we do not allow anyone else to access, unless we have had people in, which we are now not doing, to do some work on the rear of the house or in the garden.

Last time we had some work done to a tree and to reduce the height of the large hedge, the guy had a big truck with his company logo and name on the side as well as a large chipper on the back in front of our house.

NDN knocked on the door when he was taking power garden tools (Hedge trimmer etc), round and demanded to know what they were doing.

We thought it was obvious, but maybe not. Guy who is really nice, kind of felt very awkward, we have not asked him back since, which if I am honest is causing an issue as we could do with the height again reduced as well as the tree trimmed.

OP posts:
watermeloncougar · 07/07/2023 12:24

@Lellochip i think the potential problem is that even though the NDN would be putting the lock on the OP's gate, it would technically be on the NDN's property. I know it sounds crackers because morally of course the OP should be able to use the ROW but the law can be an ass on this type of thing, which is why I suggest getting legal advice about what not to do.

As the OP isn't actually using the ROW very often, it might actually be better if he does start using it daily, even several times a day! It'll make the point that up to now, it's barely inconvenienced the the NDN, but it shows that actually, the OP has every right to go back and forth as often as he wants. That might even have the effect of making the NDN back off a bit; they'll realise they had it pretty good when it was just every few weeks. The worst thing is for the OP to back down in any way, or try to compromise or negotiate. There's no negotiation to be had! It's the OP's ROW and the NDN just has to put up with it

Lellochip · 07/07/2023 12:38

I know it would technically be the neighbour's property, but in the grand scheme of things (and I'm normally one for doing things by the book!) I'd take the risk. What are they going to do, come asking 'What happened to my lock?' What lock? Surely you're mistaken, why would you have a lock on a gate that doesn't bleong to you etc? 😄

Presumably a new gate wouldn't necessarily have something to just attach a padlock to anyway, so if they screw anything into the gate it could be removed and politely returned undamaged to the neighbour perfectly legally. Plus with a stern word about the damage the neighbour has done to OP's fence.

But he's just as likely to find that he installs a gate and neighbour does nothing, they've not done anything to the awning right?

And yeah, as someone in your neighbour's shoes whose NDN does use their ROW as their only access to the house, I'd point out to them that a few minutes once a fortnight is the least of the traffic they could be getting, so they should be grateful

Reugny · 07/07/2023 14:06

SquishyGloopyBum · 07/07/2023 09:42

Why don't you put a gate up in a way that it has a lock only from your side that you then control?

They can't argue the safety aspect then.

I'd get the solicitor to send a letter reminding them of the legal right but in the interests of moving forward and addressing safety concerns you will be erecting a gate that is your property and is not to be blocked off by them installing locks etc.

Also worth checking if the access route has to be kept clear at all times.

The OP has already explained that the NDN have already tried various tactics to block the right of way and if the OP puts a gate up they will put a padlock on it, which the OP will have to use a wirecutter/angle grinder to get off.

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