There's something dodgy, isn't there?

[ginghamstarfish]

Buying a house, 3 years old with ASHP and underfloor heating. When we viewed we took shoes off and could not feel any UFH so asked (in March and it was cold). Seller said they had been away and only just turned it up but it takes a long time to respond. We asked about the warranty for the ASHP as we understood they all had at least 5 years. They said yes it did. We asked if it had been serviced, they said yes, October 2022.

We viewed again a couple of weeks later. Same again, said they were going away so had turned heating to minimum. We looked at the thermostats and they were turned down to 18.
We made an offer, it was accepted etc. Property information form asks 'when was boiler last serviced' and asks for copy of documentation - they wrote October 2022. No copy of any proof, nor could they give proof of 5 year warranty. We asked, they ignored again, asked again via estate agent, can't find it., then said the warranty was actually 2 years and expired. We asked them to contact the company who did it, to get a copy - nothing. I contacted the company who installed it to ask they had service records for that address but they will not give me any information (data protection).

So we asked - many weeks ago - that it be serviced prior to exchange. They finally agreed, giving a date of last Friday 9th June. Today we were expecting the documentation from this, but when our solicitor asked today, they say they were 'unable to have it done'.
I am convinced they are lying and the ASHP is not working properly or has a major fault. This is a MAJOR part of the purchase and reflected in the price, but if we complete and find it's not working it could cost thousands to repair or replace. I am now calling round to find an engineer myself, but pretty pissed off if I have to pay for a service to someone else's property. Would you agree there's something dodgy or am I being paranoid? The alternative is to ask for a price reduction?

don't exchange until it has been checked by YOUR engineer and let the estate agent know that it is a deal breaker.

Let estate agent know that this was agreed and everything will be on hold until it is done.
If it comes to it, yes, I'd employ my own engineer - it is an expense but in the big scheme of things may save you a heck of a lot.

def get it checked by your engineer. If it’s all fine, suck up the cost. If there is a fault, ask for a reduction and count the engineer fee in that.

Depends how much you want the house I guess.

When i bought my place the boiler was pretty much knackered. I stupidly didn't check that, but i probably still would have bought the place even if I had known.

It's never good to buy a place and then know you have got to shell out loads of cash though. If you know the manufacturers you can maybe cost a replacement and offer them the choice, either they deduct the cost of a replacement off the purchase price or prove that it is working ok with the appropriate service docs.

You could ask for £££ to be retained at sale in case of heating problems. They are behaving very suspiciously.

Underfloor is a pain if there is a problem. If pipes are leaking under the floor you may have to rip up lots of the floor to fix, if it's possible. Fitting conventional heating instead will also be difficult and still mean digging up parts of the floor to run pipes or surface mounting them. Not sure I would buy a house with underfloor heating, although initially seems like a great idea, no radiators, etc.

Thanks, yes, we think it is suspicious. Will ask solicitor re retaining money.

We would not have chosen either ASHP or UFH but there are so few properties on the market, have been renting for a year now after being let down twice on previous purchases.

We have UFH and when it is cold for long periods it is great as it really keeps everything cosy. But for UK weather where its very changeable its a nightmare - either too hot or too cold. It's also expensive and very disruptive if it goes wrong. I would say get your own engineer to check it and get a clean bill of health otherwise you don't proceed.

Personally I’d tell them you want the heating turned on full whack so you can come round and check it, before you continue with the purchase process.

I'd give them a hard deadline. An independent engineer's report by 5pm Friday 23rd June 2023 or...

And you need to decide what the "or..." is - I suggest it's either you'll withdraw your offer and walk away, or that your offer is reduced by £15k and they have 48hrs to accept the reduced offer or you walk away.

And you need the cojones to stand by your deadline. Not wimp out because you've spent some cash on surveys and solicitors.

Do they have solar panels as well? I’d also want to see their electricity bills - badly set up ASHP can guzzle electric.

But yes, I’d want the ASHP looked at by a qualified person before exchange.

No solar panels, or I'd want them looked at too. It's a couple in their 70s, he's as sharp as a tack and I suspect he plays the 'oh dear I'm just a helpless old man' card when he doesn't want to do something, ie prove that the very expensive heating system is working as it should.
Called the estate agent yesterday and asked her to speak to seller. She also called the ASHP engineer who said there was no appointment for 9th June as we had been told, but has now arranged to go this coming Friday. Just waiting to see if the seller might 'accidentally' not be at home for this one.

I'm so tempted to tell them to shove it, but DH says that we should wait. If this does not go through, we are homeless from mid July. Will have to put everything in storage and pay ££££ for fecking airbnbs, as reasonable holiday homes don't exist any more - and it's peak season. So DH says the thousands we would spend on removal to storage, storage fees, emergency accommodation at peak rate, etc would be better spent on completing this purchase and paying to fix any faults. Logically I know it makes sense but it's the injustice of this fucker playing us for so long and thinking he's got us over a barrel. I don't know if I'd enjoy living in the house after this. DH thinks I'm bonkers.

No need to get emotional and cancel the sale (although I'd feel the same!). Just be hard-nosed about it! Be prepared to lower the offer to a level that would reflect the heating system not working.

Lowering the offer isn't hard-nosed unless you are genuinely prepared to walk away if the reduced offer isn't accepted. If you're not, you'll just get your bluff called.

It does sound dodgy, but to me, it sounds dodgy in that he's had mates install all this lot/do servicing on the cheap, and part of that cheapness is they're not qualified/can't issue certificates, or a.n. other along similar lines.

I kinda came across the same when I almost bought a house from a central heating engineer last year.

Ultimately we walked away when we figured we'd need to spend 27k to bring it up to standard, and we only wanted to live there for two years.

However, as much as it pains me to say it, you KNOW it's the right thing to do. You almost certainly know that the market is full of absolutely dire properties at the moment, that you have a deadline, and he does somewhat have you backed into a corner.

It takes being the bigger man/woman to say 'okay, I know this b'stard's got me over a barrel and ordinarily I'd tell him to sling his hook... but I have to do what's right for my family.'

I'm not sure I personally could be that bigger man/woman. But I have neither family nor deadline.

If you feel like there's going to be too much emotion involved in communications on your part, hand it over to the other half to deal with and try to step back from it a little bit. It's wonderful being a keyboard warrior if you have the upper hand, but you don't. So let someone else moderate your emotions for you :)

If the engineer finds any issues, you can ask for a reduction in price to reflect that. You have time before mid-July. I hear more and more people are having to exchange and complete on the same day these days.

If the house is what you want, then as others suggest, get an engineer out to have a look and reduce your offer if there are problems.

Sometimes there's some particular appeal about a property which means it's worth the hassle factor when the sellers can't produce guarantees or certification of work done. We bought our house with the boiler on its last legs. It's brinkmanship isn't it? Our seller refused to pay for a service (don't think it had been serviced for aeons) and she probably knew that if we pulled out, she'd get another ten buyers easily as it was such a great property in terms of size, location, character, not overlooked etc So we decided to just suck it up and buy the house anyway. Right decision for us; yes it cost us to replace the boiler but it was worth it in the scheme of things.

It's not at all unusual with house buying that the seller can't produce evidence like certificates to show what work has been done. Sometimes building work was done so long ago that regulations have changed, paperwork has gone missing etc And sometimes it's just that paperwork was never obtained. Usually the seller or buyer can purchase an indemnity pretty cheaply so it's not a major problem.

In your case if this is really the house you want, then it's worth investigating the heating but you'll probably know in your heart whether you'll still want to buy it regardless

@ginghamstarfish replacing the underfloor heating is a massive job! You would have to put all your belongings into storage and find somewhere else to live while it was being sorted in any case.

If you’re still keen on the house have a look at what flooring you’d put down and get quotes for getting the tiles laid etc. You could use the floor plan for this for quotes. That will help you figure out how much you need to negotiate off.

It's not just missing documentation though. It's finding reasons not to demonstrate the heating, or have someone come out to check it's working after the query has been raised.

This isn't a passive lack of evidence, it's active measures being taken to prevent the heating system being demonstrated.

You say the house is only 3 years old? Who built it? There should be a pack of documents for everything from the cooker to the heating to the windows etc.

Tbh I would withdraw. Having had UFH only in our conservatory, it broke within 3 years and cost of taking up tiling, fixing etc meant we have installed conventional heater instead.

ASHP’s can just be crap. So there’s any possibility between it being crap and no good / not heating the area and not working properly at all.

They are correct that it takes time to heat up and they also could just have it turned off because electricity is so expensive now.

I’ve lost track of electricity prices but at 50p a unit, a 3 kilowatt ASHP costs £1.50 an hour to run which gets very real very fast.

good luck!

A new boiler is not a big issue when buying a house though. It’s pretty common to need a new one. But missing paperwork can cost tens of thousands. An indemnity won’t protect you against major structural issues caused by poor construction, and the costs of putting them right, and the OP is quite right to worry about a potential 20k+ bill here for sorting this.

Let’s see what happens on Friday. If the engineer is refused entry for any reason it would seem that they are hiding an issue. Question becomes how keen they are to sell and you to buy, as the market is falling in most places, so as much as pulling out costs you money, it likely does them too in what they will get for the house. It’s time for the agent to do some serious work!