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Landlord selling

156 replies

Mooovingonout · 27/05/2022 14:41

Yesterday I was informed my landlord intended to sell the house I live in but I'm not yet being given the official two months notice.
The estate agent does want to come round and take photos and get it on the market asap. I said it will have to be after half term but that's not good enough for them, they want to come on Monday. I can say no to that right? Unless they would like my children in every photo and they're toys out??

My view is if they want me to get the house photo ready they should take when I'm available. I'm not gaining anything from the sale

OP posts:
Silverfinch · 14/07/2022 18:55

Ohthatsexciting · 14/07/2022 17:49

Yes, but if it is in the contract, and you don’t agree with it, you should not sign it and waffle on about your “right to enjoyment” and let the landlord know.

And never find anywhere to live? Meanwhile back in the real world...

If tenants talk about their right to quiet enjoyment they're not "waffling on", they're just aware of their rights in their home.

Ohthatsexciting · 14/07/2022 18:58

Shelter is a homeless charity focussed on empowering homeless and those renting.

Shelter explicitly states that if the contract says the tenant to make the property available for viewings, they should work with agent to find a convenient time.

Silverfinch · 14/07/2022 19:04

Ohthatsexciting · 14/07/2022 18:10

And she was very accommodating.
No way would I want her to go out, and she didn’t! But she certainly was very happy for viewings to take place

I can guarantee that your tenant wasn't "very happy" for viewings to take place. No tenant is "very happy" for strangers to walk around their home. She gave you that impression because she was in a vulnerable position, wanted a good reference and her deposit back. Don't kid yourself otherwise

Ohthatsexciting · 14/07/2022 19:12

Goodness what a dark world you live in

i had to sell because I was renting in London and my landlord wanted to move back in. but not before 6 weeks of it being on the market and multiple viewings

i genuinely had no issue with viewings!!

in fact I liked the impetus to put my washing away!

you sound angry and pissed off @Silverfinch . Can’t be a pleasant way to live

Silverfinch · 14/07/2022 19:22

Ohthatsexciting · 14/07/2022 19:12

Goodness what a dark world you live in

i had to sell because I was renting in London and my landlord wanted to move back in. but not before 6 weeks of it being on the market and multiple viewings

i genuinely had no issue with viewings!!

in fact I liked the impetus to put my washing away!

you sound angry and pissed off @Silverfinch . Can’t be a pleasant way to live

I'm neither angry nor pissed off. I did feel some mild irritation at your earlier patronising posts towards the OP though making assumptions about her employment status

caringcarer · 14/07/2022 19:22

I'm a LL and have sold a property that was rented out. I gave 2 month's notice. Tenants asked for 1 more month so I agreed. They left. I freshened up house with a repaint and deep clean and had garden tidied up and some bedding plants put in to add colour, then put up for sale. I was responsible for council tax and utilities whilst empty and I wrote these costs off against tax bill. I used set of photos I had taken whilst house was empty before they moved in.

Ohthatsexciting · 14/07/2022 19:23

Silverfinch · 14/07/2022 19:22

I'm neither angry nor pissed off. I did feel some mild irritation at your earlier patronising posts towards the OP though making assumptions about her employment status

Fair enough

Mooovingonout · 14/07/2022 19:24

Thanks @Silverfinch

OP posts:
startfresh · 15/07/2022 05:24

Please remember, no matter what it says about viewings in your contract, your right to quiet enjoyment of the property supersedes that. You NEVER have to allow a viewing if you don't want.

I was nice and let them. They opened our wardrobes and broke something, which they never replaced after saying they would.

Wish I kept telling them where to go.

Pleaseletmeconfirm · 15/07/2022 09:04

I've read most the thread and ALL the OPs posts.
OP I'm not surprised you are feeling so stressed because this type of situation is always a bit stressful but I think you are making things a hundred times worse by being so difficult. By making everything a battle you are making yourself stressed.
For example why on earth does it matter when the for sale sign goes up - I don't understand why that made you angry.
Are your kids and husband also stressed and angry because if they are it's probably because you are. You mention that your kids will be on their Xbox's if the house is viewed over half term as though anyone would care!!!!
No one likes having people view their house but there is no need for all the stress.
We moved a lot and I found if you let people view as soon as possible and were as helpful as possible then the houses got sold or rented quickly and I could get on with my life. Resisting everything and being awkward just drags everything out.

The agents not locking up properly is really bad but they won't do it again will they!!!

You ARE in a stressful situation but you are making it so so much worse. It's not good for you.

BTW - I've no love for landlords and have never been one but we've rented a lot and all four of my kids have rented numerous times. I know there are bad landlords and agent but I don't think yours are.

Pleaseletmeconfirm · 15/07/2022 09:13

So I emailed the estate agent yesterday and said as it's summer holidays there wouldn't be a convenient time for viewings

Why does the fact it's summer holidays mean you can't show the house?

Mooovingonout · 15/07/2022 09:21

@Pleaseletmeconfirm the agents have asked for the house to be empty for viewings.

OP posts:
Pocolovo · 15/07/2022 09:31

Pleaseletmeconfirm · 15/07/2022 09:04

I've read most the thread and ALL the OPs posts.
OP I'm not surprised you are feeling so stressed because this type of situation is always a bit stressful but I think you are making things a hundred times worse by being so difficult. By making everything a battle you are making yourself stressed.
For example why on earth does it matter when the for sale sign goes up - I don't understand why that made you angry.
Are your kids and husband also stressed and angry because if they are it's probably because you are. You mention that your kids will be on their Xbox's if the house is viewed over half term as though anyone would care!!!!
No one likes having people view their house but there is no need for all the stress.
We moved a lot and I found if you let people view as soon as possible and were as helpful as possible then the houses got sold or rented quickly and I could get on with my life. Resisting everything and being awkward just drags everything out.

The agents not locking up properly is really bad but they won't do it again will they!!!

You ARE in a stressful situation but you are making it so so much worse. It's not good for you.

BTW - I've no love for landlords and have never been one but we've rented a lot and all four of my kids have rented numerous times. I know there are bad landlords and agent but I don't think yours are.

Wow, I bet you are a landlord!! How fucking dare you.
You’re blaming the op for feeling stressed and ill because she won’t let the landlord and letting agent get away with shitty practices that she does not according to the law have to accede to!

I’m glad you’re standing up for yourself and your family op. Absolutely refuse to let viewings take until the property is vacant!!

Pleaseletmeconfirm · 15/07/2022 09:45

@Pocolovo I've only been a tenant and have never been a landlord. I genuinely do think the OP is making herself more stressed by not just going along with the viewings. By resisting it is just dragging everything out and making it more stressful.

If rentals are going fast like the OP says they are then, had she allowed viewing, the next tenents could already have been found by now and the OP wouldn't have to be worrying about them.

leaving the door unlocked was obviously NOT ok - anyone would be pissed off about that.

rainingsnoring · 15/07/2022 10:01

I'm sorry that this is so stressful for you and that it has worsened your epilepsy.
If your landlord has been decent and is now unwell himself, I would be inclined to agree to viewings but at times that suit you. For example, could the agent arrange an open day? Can you suggest a couple of days that would suit your family better?

@Ohthatsexciting I think your comments and assumptions are unkind. You are not in a position to tell the OP whether being given notice and having to entertain viewings is stressful or not. She has children to worry about as well as herself and her husband. I have the impression from your posts that this wasn't the case for you and your tenant. That already makes a massive difference. The OP is also in a poor financial situation and unable to find another private rental (there are hardly any available in any case). She is therefore reliant on the council who have a huge lack of accommodation. That in itself is stressful.

Silverfinch · 15/07/2022 11:17

Pleaseletmeconfirm · 15/07/2022 09:04

I've read most the thread and ALL the OPs posts.
OP I'm not surprised you are feeling so stressed because this type of situation is always a bit stressful but I think you are making things a hundred times worse by being so difficult. By making everything a battle you are making yourself stressed.
For example why on earth does it matter when the for sale sign goes up - I don't understand why that made you angry.
Are your kids and husband also stressed and angry because if they are it's probably because you are. You mention that your kids will be on their Xbox's if the house is viewed over half term as though anyone would care!!!!
No one likes having people view their house but there is no need for all the stress.
We moved a lot and I found if you let people view as soon as possible and were as helpful as possible then the houses got sold or rented quickly and I could get on with my life. Resisting everything and being awkward just drags everything out.

The agents not locking up properly is really bad but they won't do it again will they!!!

You ARE in a stressful situation but you are making it so so much worse. It's not good for you.

BTW - I've no love for landlords and have never been one but we've rented a lot and all four of my kids have rented numerous times. I know there are bad landlords and agent but I don't think yours are.

You don't understand why the OP was upset about the for sale sign going up before she had even been served notice?! Maybe she didn't want people peering in through her windows or knocking on her door before she'd even been given a timescale for leaving?

All this comes down to is money. Landlords don't want empty properties, they want their cake and to eat it too. Tenant out at the very last minute and buyer in. Sod the inconvenience and stress to the tenant who is expected to endlessly open up their home to valuations, viewings and surveys with absolutely no benefit to themselves.

How it would make it less stressful for the OP to just roll over I don't know. If it were me I would feel the extra pressure of making sure the house was tidy...people can say until the cows come home that it doesn't matter, but if you're a house proud person you're going to care. I wouldn't want a stream of people wearing shoes through my home, opening up my cupboards, looking at my things. The initial battle with the landlord to refuse viewings might be stressful but then it's done.

WombatChocolate · 15/07/2022 11:38

I write as a LL who has also been a tenant in the past.
See my earlier posts about sensible and aware LLs always getting vacant possession BEFORE marketing properties.

People fail to realise that by nature the LL-tenant relationship is never quite equal. Tenants know they never have long term security and might have to move. Given that LLs do need to be able to sell their properties and liquidise their assets, this is always necessary, but doesn’t make it more pleasant as a fact and crucially, the ways this occurs can be very unpleasant for tenants, which many seem to think tenants should just accept as givens.

Being given notice, regardless of whether a property is being sold is always unpleasant, if you like your home and hoped to stay there. However nicely, politely and considerately it’s done, it’s not nice. Rightly, there are minimum notice periods and these have to work for both LLs and tenants. 2 months might sound a long period, but isn’t if you have a family and have to find somewhere else and factor in things like schools, workplaces and particularly when there are shortages.

Tenants almost always worry about moving out. They worry about references that will be given and about deposits being returned and finding another deposit ahead of having the first returned. They worry about requirements mentioned in the contract such as professional carpet cleaning and gardening requirements. Some of these things are not legal requirements for renters, but lots of LLs and agencies still out them in. So, as the point of heading towards vacating, the relationship isn’t equal. The tenant feels they must please the LL or agent to ensure they get all their deposit back and get the reference they need. And it’s in this context that some tenants find themselves also being asked to accommodate property viewings. So saying ‘no’ or significantly restricting when they can happen often feels like it will jeopardise the reference or deposit. So often a LL or agent asks and asks in such a way as to make it feel compulsory and that a tenant will lose out by saying no.

Again, there is no requirement to allow viewings.

People poo-pooing Ops desire not to have viewings and calling her difficult, forget that at least some level of tidying is needed. They forget that viewings mean strangers coming into your private bathroom and toilet and probably looking in your cupboards. It feels like a violation, especially if you can’t be there. Then there’s the need to go out - especially in winter, exactly where do you go, for perhaps 90 minutes? It’s not always straightforward especially with several children. It might involve spending money. So, no, people aren’t going to welcome it as a chance to have a tidy up and see it as a positive. It’s a definite negative and imposition and bearing in mind some agents or LLs want to show people multiple times a week over multiple weeks, there is scope for real abuse. Remmeber, lots of tenants are vulnerable. They might not know their rights and unfortunately some LLs or agents don’t treat them or speak to them with respect about these issues.

Anything about marketing and property viewings should be phrased as a question, where it’s clear that there is always the option to say ‘no’ without any impact whatsoever. However, this rarely happens but instead, tenants feel coerced into agreeing to things they don’t want. And that’s where the problem lies.

As a LL I would never try to sell a property with tenants. It’s mostly because it’s impossible to know for sure when tenants will vacate or if legal eviction proceedings which can h can take a year will be needed, meaning exchange is impossible. But it’s also because tentnas are paying rent and entitled to quiet enjoyment of the property until the day they leave. Therefore, I would always factor in giving notice (and ideally not doing this but waiting for a tenant to choose to vacate) and having a period with the property empty and no rental income, whilst being decorated and then marketed. It is no good for LLs to say they can’t afford to have the property empty so need to market whilst rented. If that’s the case, they can’t afford to be LLs. The tenant pays rent and should receive the property without interruption. To try to market it and expect them to tidy or to go out whilst viewings happen or. Or have strangers traipsing through the property they pay for……in my view it’s tantamount to theft.

So Op, especially with summer holidays coming up and kids at home, I’d stick to your guns and say that ‘no’ you’re not prepared to have to vacate your home with your full brood and wander the streets whilst they look. You’ve paid and it’s your property until you vacate. They will have to wait. It’s not awkwardness. It’s wanting what you’ve paid for and a secure home without strangers coming in is very much that.

startfresh · 15/07/2022 11:46

@WombatChocolate

You actually sound like a brilliant LL. Kudos to you. I wish more behaved this way.

Silverfinch · 15/07/2022 11:51

Excellent post @WombatChocolate. You sound like a great landlord.

Mooovingonout · 15/07/2022 12:14

Thank you @WombatChocolate 😊

OP posts:
Pleaseletmeconfirm · 15/07/2022 12:31

@Silverfinch "How it would make it less stressful for the OP to just roll over I don't know. If it were me I would feel the extra pressure of making sure the house was tidy...people can say until the cows come home that it doesn't matter, but if you're a house proud person you're going to care."

It would make it less stressful because she would get it over and done with. Prolonging everything and getting angry isn't going to make the OP less stressed. The OP has said that houses are going very quickly. Restricting when people can visit means that fewer people will come over a longer timespan. Tidying up for viewing is difficult and annoying. I get that as I've had to do it myself. However the OP id going to have to do it at some point so why not crack on with it now.

I feel like some of the posters encouraging the OP to be angry are not putting her needs first tbh and are just getting angry about generic landlords are all bastards

Silverfinch · 15/07/2022 12:51

@Pleaseletmeconfirm she won't be getting anything over and done with if she starts allowing access. First of all there would be the initial flurry of viewings. Offer gets accepted and if the OP is lucky that sale proceeds because if the buyer pulls out a week later as so often happens, the viewings start again. Then perhaps the OP has to allow access for a structural survey. Then the buyer wants to come back for a second viewing. Then maybe the buyer wants to instruct a specialist roof or drain inspection.

Far far easier to just say no to the lot.

Silverfinch · 15/07/2022 13:05

And I don't think anybody is encouraging her to be angry - they just want her to stand her ground, which should be communicated in an unemotional way. If it were me, I would send the agent a calm and professional email stating that on reflection, I will not be accommodating access to the property during the remainder of my tenancy. Kind regards etc.

Pleaseletmeconfirm · 15/07/2022 17:13

@Silverfinch The OP has to allow viewings though so if she doesn't allow them now and makes everything difficult and unpleasant then the viewings will just happen later and in the meantime the OP will be stressing.

The OP agreed to the house being viewed in the last two months of her tenancy when she rented the house.

If the OP carries on being awkward then don't you think it will piss off the owner and the agents and that might mean they are not going to even try and be considerate towards the OP
The whole situation is shite for the OP but I think she is making it worse for herself by being awkward.
I was helpful and accommodating to my agents when they were wanting to show the house(s) we were renting. I didn't do it because I'm a pushover I did it because it gave me more control.

Houses usually rent and sell pretty quickly at the moment so the agents might have found someone to buy in within a few weeks. Then the OP could concerntrate on other things.

Silverfinch · 15/07/2022 17:57

@Pleaseletmeconfirm but you're completely wrong, she doesn't have to allow viewings. It doesn't matter what she signed, clauses in an agreement don't override tenancy law. The only thing she needs to legally grant access for is in an emergency situation such as gas leak or flood.

In what way do you think the landlord will be inconsiderate if she says no to viewings? She's already been served her notice. They can't withhold her deposit on the basis of her not having allowed viewings. They can't shorten the notice period. How will it negatively affect her to see out the rest of her tenancy in peace?