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Landlord selling

156 replies

Mooovingonout · 27/05/2022 14:41

Yesterday I was informed my landlord intended to sell the house I live in but I'm not yet being given the official two months notice.
The estate agent does want to come round and take photos and get it on the market asap. I said it will have to be after half term but that's not good enough for them, they want to come on Monday. I can say no to that right? Unless they would like my children in every photo and they're toys out??

My view is if they want me to get the house photo ready they should take when I'm available. I'm not gaining anything from the sale

OP posts:
BackT · 12/06/2022 16:03

Absolutely do not let them in to take photos. You have no obligation whatsoever.

In terms of you wanting a house with them - it's unlikely to make any difference. All of the properties are owned by different landlords and the letting agent don't really get to chose who moves in and when.

Didyousaysomethingdarling · 12/06/2022 17:23

@BackT
In terms of you wanting a house with them - it's unlikely to make any difference. All of the properties are owned by different landlords and the letting agent don't really get to chose who moves in and when.

But they do chose who to let view the property first and if prospective tenants are 'queuing round the block' it's usually first come first served, if all the applicants are of equal calibre.

mumwon · 12/06/2022 21:36

Not all houses being sold have pictures of the interior to begin with anyway
& there is a lot of landlords getting out of the business (because several changes in laws, taxes, costs evictions etc)

Mooovingonout · 14/06/2022 12:41

Pictures were taken Friday, on Rightmove Saturday and the agents started hassling me about viewing yesterday. The only convenient time when we would all be out would be Sunday afternoons but that doesn't work for them 🙄

OP posts:
viques · 14/06/2022 12:51

Mooovingonout · 14/06/2022 12:41

Pictures were taken Friday, on Rightmove Saturday and the agents started hassling me about viewing yesterday. The only convenient time when we would all be out would be Sunday afternoons but that doesn't work for them 🙄

That is not your problem. You have gone above and beyond your legal obligations by letting them take photographs. You have also offered them access for an open afternoon viewing which they have declined. You now have to remember the magic and legal phrase “ quiet enjoyment of your home” which means they can bog off.

Twiglets1 · 14/06/2022 13:20

Mooovingonout · 09/06/2022 17:49

Thanks for the advice @Discovereads, sorry to read about your situation. Renting is absolutely horrible right now.

Monday night I was in hospital as the stress got to me and set my epilepsy off. Estate agent still wants to come round and take photos. Still waiting on my two months notice..

The landlord is unlikely to serve you notice until after the flat is sold. The legal work usually takes at least 3 months so they have plenty of time to give you 2 months notice

WombatChocolate · 14/06/2022 13:58

I disagree that most LLs won’t give notice until after they have a buyer. Most appreciate that they cannot exchange until there is vacant possession and that until a property is actually empty, it cannot be guaranteed and exchange cannot occur.

It isn’t unknown by any means for tenants to struggle to find somewhere to go (especially at the moment with shortages) or struggle to be able to afford a next place and to not leave by the end of the notice period. Councils often advise they don’t leave but wait for formal eviction proceedings which is a perfectly legal choice. These can take up to a year. This is why most LLs prefer to sell with vacant possession and most people prefer not to offer on properties which are still tenanted and certainly not on those which haven’t even given legal notice to vacate.

Sometimes LLs point out that by giving notice and waiting for vacant posesssion beofre marketing, they will have a void and earn no rent. Yes, that is the case and a factor LLs need to factor into their calculations about costs and revenue when choosing to be LLs. You cannot have your cake and eat it. You really cannot expect to have a tenant paying full rent AND expect them to give up their quiet enjoyment of the property to tidy up for photos or potential buyers to view, and you cannot expect tenants to always vacate according to notice, when they have rights to a legal eviction process. It is greed to imagine you can have a tenanted property until the point of exchange or just before.

I say this as a LL. When I buy property I wouldn’t look at property with tenants still resident unrless I was planning to take them on as part if the purchase. As a normal residential buyer, a I would never look at tenanted properties because I know how often exchange and completion is delayed substantially by waiting for vacant possession. As a LL, I accept that when I sell I need to think. Ahead by about a year. I need to give notice and wait for vacant possession before I advertise the property for sale. I do face a void period with no rent, but that’s all part of the whole process of being a LL from the point of buying to selling property. If you can’t afford that void or it means your figures don’t stack up, then being a LL isn’t for you. And it’s poor LL behaviour to ask and expect paying tenants to allow agents to come and take photos (expecting the property to be tided) or to allow viewings. The tenant pays expensive rent for quiet enjoyment of the property.

If I were a tenant, I would make clear that I would not be allowing viewings, unless there was to be some significant compensation for inconvenience. This isn’t about tenants being awkward, but receiving the quiet enjoyment they have paid handsomely for. LLs who expect tenants to allow these viewings and who pressure the tenants or ask agents to pressure them, and who expect their tenants to live knowing the property is to be sold and without formal notice being served, as they hope for a longer period of getting rent, expect too much from their tenants. Yes, they can give notice and yes they can sell….but they need to do this in a way which respects their tenants rights to quiet enjoyment and legal rights to notice and legal eviction proceedings if needed. Some LLs think the fact they own the property means the tenant should have to go at the drop of a hat, live in uncertainty about being given notice and spend part of their tenancy with starnagers trail sing through their home. No, the rent they pay snd tenancies they sign entitle them to more than this snd most LLs realise it and do the right thing and plan ahead.

Crikeyalmighty · 14/06/2022 14:30

I'm fairly sure some houses only come on the rental market after they are empty because a tenant has excercise their rights to quiet enjoyment! The cheeky buggers can wait till it suits you

WombatChocolate · 14/06/2022 15:59

Some tenants are very aware of their rights. They are renting because it suits them and they expect to be treated appropriately by the LL whom they are laying large rent to each month. This means that they expect repairs to be done to property and don’t expect LL to be interfering in their life or interrupting their quiet enjoyment of the property. If an agent or LL starts pressuring them to do viewings etc, they give them short sheriff snd confidently point out that this isn’t a requirement and they won’t be accommodating it, or ask about what compensation there will be in return.

Unfortuantely lots of tenants are not so aware and are often rather bullied by LLs or agents. It can feel like a very unequal relationship with lots of tenants not having read their contracts or being aware of what their rent and contract entitles them to in terms of property maintenance, notice periods, quiet enjoyment and rights to a legal eviction if they choose to remain. Too many tenants feel they have to bend over backwards to accommodate the agent or LL who speaks to them in a condescending manner or makes them feel like living in the property is some kind of favour which can be withdrawn at a moments notice, rather than a contractual agreement which applies both ways.

Too many of the public think those renting are second class citizens. Loads who aren’t tenants or LLs on the many MN threads seem to think a LL should be able to sell at any point or ask a tenant to leave at any point ‘because it’s their house’. They don’t understand that when you let your house for rent, that tenant rightly gains rights to live in the property and to legal notice periods and eviction processes. They have paid for these rights and by receiving rent, the LL is legally bound (not something from the goodness of their hearts that they are free to choose to ‘generously’ give to their lowly tenant or with-hold depending on their whim) to deliver what is legally their rights and they have paid for.

It is not expecting too much to be left in the property you’ve paid to be in, without other people traipsing round to look. The LL can wait until the property is empty to show it. It is wrong and often exploitative and abusive of LLs and agents to pressure tenants to open up the home for people to view, especially when they pressure them to allow access at inconvenient times. Lies can be told about tenants being required to do this, or threats made about deposits etc.

As property purchasers, just do t go and look at tenanted properties, unless you’re a LL wanting to take the tenant on. There are regular threads on MN from property buyers bewailing the fact they can’t exchange because the bloody tenants are still there and won’t leave. They fail to realise that sometimes these tenants haven’t even been served notice and that they are perfectly entitled to remain until it fully expires and if they choose to remain behind this, legal methods are in place for eviction which they are entitled to. They are not being bloody tenants obstructing the sale, simply tenants living in the property they have paid for and have contractual rights to. More fool the buyer who offers on such a property and who hasn’t understood those rights, or who thinks that as a buyer, their desire to buy the property somehow trumps the rights and entitlements of someone who is contracted to be in that property. But, often the world sees it like this….the owner who is selling and the person who wants to buy must be right. They are those with money wanting to trade property and the tenant is merely a renter who can’t afford to buy and who surely should evacuate and accommodate those who wish to buy and sell and sacrifice any rights or entitlements to them. Quite simply NO.

And again I say it as a LL.

bigdecisionstomake · 14/06/2022 16:10

Stick to your guns OP. If Sunday afternoons suit you best then ask them to book an open house for a Sunday afternoon in the next week or two and do all the viewings in one go on that day. Remember you are doing them a favour letting them do viewings at all.

I work for a landlord and on the very rare occasion we sell a property we would always wait until it was empty before starting the marketing process. That way you can be sure you can offer vacant possession and it also gives us the opportunity to do any maintenance/touching up required to make it look its best - the extra premium achieved in the sale price doing that generally covers the loss from any void period.

Mooovingonout · 14/06/2022 17:21

Thankyou, I've been doubting myself over this and most posters have given me a push to stand up for myself.

I have emailed the agent and have given him two days next week of 12-3pm while kids are at school/college and DH is at work. I'll go shopping or for coffee or something.

OP posts:
AnotherCrazyBirdLady · 15/06/2022 15:14

@WombatChocolate , I wish you were my LL! I have been exploited by two of the kind you mention lately, and what you say is completely spot on.

Mooovingonout · 23/06/2022 15:55

First viewing today - came home to the back gate wide open, the outer conservatory door unlocked but inner door locked. When I left the inner door was unlocked.

I'm so annoyed 😠

I've still not had my notice so I know I don't have to allow viewings. Myself and ds17 had to go out for 2 hours and I come home to my house insecure.

(My children only have keys to the outer conservatory door so were locked out until I came home, not agents fault as they weren't to know that but still annoying for them)

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 23/06/2022 18:10

Yes, it’s a terrible inconvenience and very annoying especially if left insecure.

Are you looking for something else, or are you hoping the notice of end of tenancy will be a long time coming?

On one hand you can absolutely refuse viewings etc. You could find this speeds up the formal notice. Although that will mean you need to be gone sooner you will know when to go by and have certainty rather than living in limbo.

By allowing viewings, an offer is likely to come….and if it doesn’t and you keep allowing it, you could face the disruption for ages.

If your tenancy is periodic and you can give a months notice to go, I’d be looking for something else whilst not allowing viewings or only a very select amount. And at the point you find something, give that notice and from then on, don’t allow any more viewings. You are orefectly entitled to this. The LL really should be waiting for vacant possession and not being greedy and expecting you to pay full rent whilst being inconvenienced by viewings, and hoping to get a sale. Really it’s tentnants paying full rent OR vacant possession any selling.

LittleOwl153 · 23/06/2022 18:30

You know you are within your rights to refuse all viewings. I would report the fact that they left your property unsecured and that they will need to be much more considerate if they want to continue viewings. (I.e. you consider their cards marked).

I would also speak to the agent and say that you are finding it difficult to secure somewhere else to go - perhaps they could keep an eye open for you. I'd also let slip I'd spoken to the council / citizens advice. They will know that this means you know your rights and if you are able to get on the council list they will be advising you to stay put until the bailiffs arrive. It might encourage them to help you...

In reality if you don't have anywhere to go and think your ccj will prevent you from renting elsewhere you might be as well to stop viewings and delay things.

Mooovingonout · 23/06/2022 18:40

We've decided we're going to wait it out and go for council housing. We realise it's going to be long and we'll probably be housed in b&bs/temp accommodation for a while but feel it's the more secure option in the long run. We also have family to help if need be.

SO we need our notice, I've told the estate agent this. I'm still looking at private rentals in the mean time but I doubt I'll get through the credit check with my ccj.

DH rang the agents to complain about the house being left unlocked, her excuse was it was her first visit to the property and she didn't know how to shut the gate (or lock the doors?) then tries to tell him the viewer seemed interested. DH told her he didn't care as were not the sellers.

OP posts:
LittleOwl153 · 23/06/2022 18:48

So if you've decided to wait it out stop the viewings. They don't have any right to viewings even once they have given you your notice (independently of what they or your contracts says - they know this they are trying it on).

If you refuse viewings you will get your s21 quicker I expect as landlord will realise he cannot sell otherwise.

Why2why · 23/06/2022 19:47

Please don’t listen to people who say you can ignore a contract you signed whilst at the same time saying the law is supreme. Boggles the mind!

God knows what law they are referring to that would get you out of the law that requires you to honour your contract.

Why2why · 23/06/2022 19:52

WombatChocolate · 23/06/2022 18:10

Yes, it’s a terrible inconvenience and very annoying especially if left insecure.

Are you looking for something else, or are you hoping the notice of end of tenancy will be a long time coming?

On one hand you can absolutely refuse viewings etc. You could find this speeds up the formal notice. Although that will mean you need to be gone sooner you will know when to go by and have certainty rather than living in limbo.

By allowing viewings, an offer is likely to come….and if it doesn’t and you keep allowing it, you could face the disruption for ages.

If your tenancy is periodic and you can give a months notice to go, I’d be looking for something else whilst not allowing viewings or only a very select amount. And at the point you find something, give that notice and from then on, don’t allow any more viewings. You are orefectly entitled to this. The LL really should be waiting for vacant possession and not being greedy and expecting you to pay full rent whilst being inconvenienced by viewings, and hoping to get a sale. Really it’s tentnants paying full rent OR vacant possession any selling.

That’s nonsense.

OP, whatever you signed up to in your contract, honour that. If the notice haven’t been given, then you have the right to jot allow viewings but it is not a requirement by law that a landlord can only advertise or give viewings when the property is vacant. The request by the landlord is a reasonable request and no court in this land will consider it otherwise.

WombatChocolate · 23/06/2022 20:05

Sorry, but that’s not true.

LLs and agents have all kinds of unenforceable terms in their contracts which are superseded by the law.

Have your read the full thread?

Tenants are NOT obliged to allow photos and viewings. It is their choice.

There is nothing in law which says LLs must have vacant possession to market their property, but as earlier posts make clear, given they cannot exchange before vacant possession, and given that if a tenant doesn’t vacate when given notice and has legal right to a legal revisit iIn process which can take multiple months, any LL trying to sell a property with a tenant cannot give any certainty to the buyer about when exchange will be possible in the short term. This is why most choose to get vacant possession before marketing and also why most experienced buyers who don’t want to buy a property with a tenant as part if the arrangement , won’t offer on tenanted properties.

witheringrowan · 23/06/2022 20:49

Why2why · 23/06/2022 19:47

Please don’t listen to people who say you can ignore a contract you signed whilst at the same time saying the law is supreme. Boggles the mind!

God knows what law they are referring to that would get you out of the law that requires you to honour your contract.

Section 9A.8 of the 1985 Landlord and Tenant Act.

You can put whatever you want in a contract and get someone to sign it, but it cannot override statutory rights and obligations

Why2why · 23/06/2022 20:56

What are the statutory rights you are referring to? Please state clearly.

Also how do you overcome this being a reasonable request?

Armchair, pretend legal eagles can lead people into some pretty detrimental situations.

Why2why · 23/06/2022 20:57

I’m sorry I have no patience with make believe lawyers.

PerfectlyQuiet · 23/06/2022 21:13

I don't agree with all the posters encouraging you to make it awkward for the agents and landlord.

When we've been in rentals we accepted that it was part of renting that you will have people viewing the house. I can't say I was overjoyed to help out but I found by being helpful I had a lot more bargaining power than if I was difficult. Once I knew the property was being sold or our tenancy was coming to an end I'd make sure the house was tidy'ish and I'd propose a few days a week where the house could be viewed. It was easy for the agent if they knew that Tuesday's and Thursday were ok but that Monday's and Saturday's weren't ....(or whatever). If I was helpful then they all seemed to be in return. I guess they get so many people being arse'y about it that they were happy to get someone who was reasonable.
Being awkward just drags the whole process out. I don't understand why you would want to do that. I felt by being helpful the house would be rented out quickly and then I could get on with my life.

If houses are selling quickly where you are why don't you just go along with it. It would probably sell quickly and you might only have to show the house to a few people. With some agents I even agreed to show the house for them. I made it clear I was a tenant and I wouldn't answer many questions but it meant I could show viewers around very quickly. I only did it with people the agents had already met. In return the agents and landlords were very reasonable and flexible with us. Apart from a couple of places I rented as a student I've not had a bad experience with a landlord or their agents.

Also, there is absolutely no need to leave the house when people view it. That's just making your life difficult for the sake of it.

witheringrowan · 24/06/2022 00:27

@why2why Fine, here is a legal firm confirming that it is illegal for a landlord or agent to enter the property without the tenant's permission, unless it is to carry out emergency repairs:
coodes.co.uk/blog/landlord-right-enter-property/

HTFH