Inequality in Devon and Cornwall

[GraceJonesBiggestFan]

So there have been a lot of threads about moving to the South West recently. Many including people who have moved down and criticised the local people for being insular or lacking aspiration. Many also including comments from people like me who are offended at the suggestion and have tried to explain why local people might feel incredibly upset at the awful inequality in Devon and Cornwall, and frustrated with the lack of empathy shown by people who’ve moved down with a ton of money.

So I thought I’d break it down on a new thread, so it’s not something personal against individual posters seeking advice.

The TLDR is this www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-61241981

My family have lived within the same 2 villages for over 500 years. In that time they were all collectively employed by the local landowner (Clinton Devon Estates, in various iterations over the years). They all worked as farm labourers, domestic service, blacksmiths etc. They never owned property because a) they would never have earned enough and b) they had housing provided as part of their remuneration. It was hard work, but to be fair to Lord and Lady Clinton they gave jobs for life and when for example my Grandad retired, he was able to continue living in his family house for a peppercorn rent.

My grandparents were both very sharp, but both worked from the age of 12/14 to put food on the table. So no opportunities for betterment. My Dad is very clever, but there was no way his parents could afford the additional tuition for his 11 plus, so he left school at 14 to work as a labourer. My sisters and I were all recognised by our primary school teachers as being more than capable of going to the local grammar, but the bus there was £60 a term and the uniform £120. There was absolutely no way my parents could afford this. I spent much of my childhood growing up in a caravan in a field, but still achieved 11 As and A*s at GCSE (back then this was incredibly unusual).

The kids in my class who went to the grammar school and then went on to university were entirely the children of parents who had moved down from the South East. Their parents sold houses in London, bought what seemed like a mansion in Devon. They paid for their children to have additional tuition to pass the entrance exams, paid for them to do music, sports and language lessons. Supported them financially to go to university and do unpaid internships.

I don’t begrudge them this at all. If I had the means, I would do the same for my daughter.

But I hope it in some way explains why it’s not a “lack of aspiration” that holds people here back. The inequality in Devon and Cornwall is horrific and has gotten unbearably worse in the last 2 years. People recognise inner-city poverty and deprivation, but the poverty and inequality in Devon and Cornwall is statistically much worse. Consider that if you live in poverty in London, you at least have access to many universities and can continue to live at home rent free. If you grow up in Devon or Cornwall, your options for studying and living at home are much more limited. Most people born and bred here therefore earn minimum wage. Their parents weren’t home owners themselves (so no help with buying), but are now competing with people who have grown up in the South East with all the opportunities for social mobility there are there, with all the equity from their home ownership, with much higher wages etc.

I see it now again. The kids with the rich parents who moved down during the pandemic, now lining up a ton of extra-curricular activities so their child again gets the grammar school places. The local kids left behind to be laughed at as “lacking aspiration”. The parents in their cars that cost more than most people here will earn in 8 years. The wellies that cost more than my own car. The music, sports and language lessons that cost more than most parents receive in universal credit. Getting turfed out to live in B&Bs because your landlords selling up (for extortionate London prices) or turning your home into an air bnb. We’re not “unfriendly” or “insular”, we’re just utterly heartbroken.

Yeah, born bought up here, Cornish family roots back to west Cornwall for '00s of years.... Did move away for work, which took me to many different countries and perhaps gave me another perspective.

What i see is Cornwall is really struggling to attract enough people to work in key sectors, esp adult social care, 100s of vulnerable elderly cannot get care at home, hospital cannot discharge patients as no care packages can be obtained.

Many reasons for this but the inability to house local young people in their immediate area and low wages are the main cause.

All of us are responding to the point made above where someone claimed that "no one minds people moving here who live here permanently, it"s just about second homes."

All of us pointed out examples on this thread which show that isn't true. People from Cornwall are saying they intrinsically have more right to live there because their ancestors did.

Instead of acknowledging the truth of that, you are asking a completely different question. Moving the goalposts entirely.

The relevant point is that yes, several people on this thread alone do object to anyone moving to 'their' county/village who were born elsewhere.

You should have the integrity to admit that.

@AProperStinging I'm actually a Jew living in Cornwall. Both my daughter and I look stereotypically Jewish (although I look more the Sefardi type and my daughter more of the Ashkenazi type). For us living here is quite tough, there's obviously no representation and if we want decent schools my DC would have to attend CoE schools. Other member of the community have gone that way and really regret it.

Thanks for sharing your experience @Onlyrainbows , that sounds really tough. I lived in South Wales for a few years (obviously not the same thing, as there is still a Jewish community there, although it's rapidly shrinking) and even that felt quite 'cut off' from the main currents of Jewish life and isolating.

My kids don't go to faith schools, but we live in a very Jewish area so there are plenty of other (mixed) families like us, as well as a really broad range of other religions/cultures among their friends.

Do you think you will stay there long term? Are you able to give your daughter a Jewish upbringing - can you get challah and kosher wine and so on?

Londoners have been pushed out of London. Have you noticed? Even if they and their parents and their grandparents were Londoners. It’s now too expensive.

should Londoners complain that they have a divine right to ban incomers due to liking london and having family there?
Pfffft.

This is a bit tedious isn't it but I'll screenshot what googlemaps has just told me.

(Also I'm sure you know it takes longer to get to Falmouth than Truro despite it being "closer" to the far west of Cornwall)

Currently says one hour to drive that distance to Truro, an hour and seven to Falmouth. Obviously most students don't have cars and many can't drive due to age/can't afford to learn.

There are indeed (or were) Londoners complaining that newly built apartments in London were being bought off plan by foreign investors who then often left them empty.

@1dayatatime well we complain about homes being bought by investors who leave it empty but we don't complain about people moving to London whether temporarily or even past time. I wouldn't complain about someone who has a flat in the Barbican and a country house outside London. I mean, that person is working in London and spending in London and understandably can't commute 4+ hours per day but also wants a bigger house outside London for his family. I mean, I am even a bit upset when people say they hate London and then leave London!

The ONS census figures for race are always inaccurate. The link to the 2011 stats suggest 96% of roughly 500,000 went for white. So Cornwall is certainly more diverse than 1000 individuals !
Add under reporting, avoidance of paperwork, etc and it's not the Cornwall of a generation ago.
Because the population is small, we don't have significant local groups with shared heritage which is hard for the Jewish poster above and everyone else at times of celebration or mourning. This also, combined with transport issues makes lots of small populations - eg pregnant women, train spotters, lesbians, Olympic standard athletes feel very isolated. You may be the only decent tennis player in the village.
I don't want any racists reading this thread to think that moving to Cornwall will remove them from living in a global society. The full time community is from and has worked all over the world. Cornish miners were at the bottom of every hole in the globe 200years ago. That universal uncomfortable airport seating - designed and manufactured in North Cornwall, big satalite dish installation is another niche industry. It's not in common to chat to people and find they've been to Hong Kong more times than London.

Just a word on access & aspiration. Obviously the internet has changed all our life's being able to Google anything and everything.
But in terms of physical access for huge numbers of young people the school bus picks up and drops off only once a term time day, near your home. It doesn't give you any time to visit a library, take part in after school clubs, access health and contraception.
More kids in my 13year olds class can drive a tractor than have been to Nandos in Exeter or the Eden Project.

It was 1000 Black people I cited. Which is 0.2% of approximately 500,000 people.

Not non-white. Black specifically.

Those stats show 96% white British and another 2% white other. So 98% of 500,000 white.

Which means around 10,000 people in Cornwall who are non-white. 2%.

If you think that a population of 98% white people (of which 96% are white british) and 2% non white is "diverse", I'm really not sure what I can usefully say to you.

@AProperStinging you can't use the figures like that, particularly with such a small population , your confidence interval will be quite extreme.
We ticked Cornish and European in the last census just to mess with your head.

Lock down holidays have resulted in a much more diverse population of holidaymakers discovering areas of the UK, an unexpected benefit of Covid.

I want to clarify that I don't feel I have a right to Cornwall, more a responsibility.

I certainly don't think I can sit on my laurels and expect to have a lovely quality of life here forever, I've worked really hard just to survive and it just wasn't possible for me to escape poverty and achieve stability here yet. I hope that with funded online study options and wfh opportunities, plus finally having a permanent home, I can finally achieve a good salary once I've completed a degree and maybe make enough to help other Cornish people.

I don't see the relevance of skin colour here. If people were being displaced from some small community in say Haiti would we complain they were not diverse enough? Am I missing something? Also about the census I do think non-white Cornish moved away more often because of racism and form some of the diaspora, choosing to live in more diverse areas.

@AProperStinging as I said you are taking a very small number of posts and extrapolating them to an entirely false dichotomy, despite myself and others continually rebutting your arguments.

You yourself are emphasising the importance of the community that is important to you yet in the same breath denying that others also have a right to a community.

Let me be clear. The vast majority of residents in the SW welcome new residents and guests. What really galls, in exactly the same way as London, is empty properties that add nothing to the local community and visitors who treat all the locals as if we should be grateful to them.

Why would 'Cornish' and 'European' "mess with my head"? 🙁

So you dispute that the 98% of people who ticked 'White' on the census is a correct statistic. You think that the ONS, or the people who filled in the form, got it wrong somehow. What do think the true % of White people in Cornwall is? 96%? 100%?

We ticked Cornish and European in the last census just to mess with your head

As Cornwall is situated in the continent of Europe, why on earth would that mess with anyone’s head? It’s simple geography.

So the census form is filled in by individuals, you have a legal obligation as a UK resident to do that. But you can put down Micky mouse, you can tick Jedi. You can completely miss out whole sections that you do not wish to answer.
I was so furious about Brexit, I ticked Cornish and European but not British. I am part of the statistical problem.
If you add up the % on the Wikipedia link it doesn't come to 100. You could tick white British because of your mum and black Caribbean because of your dad and Roma because you had been living in a caravan for ten years and wanted better site provision.
Other people, including the second home owners breaking lock down restrictions prefer not to go on record. People who have happily settled in Cornwall but have a family history of persecution by a Government may complete the form with a minimum of information. It's not a document to benefit us as individuals it's to allow informed decisions to be made on a community basis. The ONS give a lot of thought to getting the best accurate data and working out how confident

I absolutely agree that the dominate identity in full time Cornwall communities is white, probably non-practising Christian, but I think my community does enjoy the diversity of our small but valued diverse population. And although the population is small statistically it will have more global representation than say the Chinatown area in a capital city which would historically, initially be from one geographical area.

Have a look at the ONS website, they genuinely are an amazing research institute and I'm sure can answer lots of points in great detail.

I think it's a general principle people the world over understand that people with a lot of family history in the area/who have never left it should in general be able to live there, ideally. My neighbour is a Londoner of countless generations who was forced out due to cost of living/lack of council housing, I feel that's wrong. Likewise if rich English people were moving to - say - a town in rural Ireland or St Lucia and creating an environment where locals had to leave, many on this thread would be saying it was not a good thing.

Sorry to get my red flag out but some of this thread is just typical where poor people (i.e. normal people) are encouraged to fight each other rather than put the blame where it belongs - with the rich and the unfettered access they allow each other to do whatever they want. It's sure as shit not my neighbour who's moving to rural Devon and putting the prices up as she's never owned her own home.

I think ideally sure, but that’s not the reality in most capitalist counties, there is a lot of idealisations, it’s really pointless talking about them when no such policy exists, I mean ideally we wouldn’t have world hunger, there would be no poverty in the world, addiction would not be something humans suffered from, we can eat what we want and not get fat, no one committed crimes, but these things are not reality and we don’t live in a communist society.

your neighbour is not entitled to housing in London, simply because her family came from there. Like anyone else, if she wants a home in London then she will need to earn enough to buy one or rent one, no one is going to give her one cheap becayse her granny lived there. I don’t think any where in the world idealises that’s idea.

I think a point that many English posters fail to understand when posting about Cornwall is that Cornish people have a strong affinity to Cornwall as a recognised national minority (in the same way as Scottish or the Welsh).

Its attitudes like this that perpetuate the stereotype of the insular Cornish person with a chip on their shoulder.

People understand perfectly well that Cornish people have a strong affinity to Cornwall. They just don’t agree that that entitles Cornish people to live in Cornwall forever if they can’t afford it. I’m a Londoner that has a strong affinity to London, but I can’t afford to live there so I don’t anymore. My children will probably be unable to afford to live in the area they grew up in either. This is just life, it’s the reality for most of us and Cornish people are not a special case. They do not deserve to live in areas they can’t afford to live in any more than the rest of us.

No one can expect to work a minimum wage job and still buy a home in an expensive area, even those from Cornwall.

No one can expect to work a minimum wage job and still buy a home in an expensive area, even those from Cornwall

Of course but we need people to do low skilled, low paid work, much of which is essential.
So if provision isn't made for them to do so, who does this work? its not going to be the children of wealthy new comers, they all aspire to be Accounts, Lawyers and Surgeons.

Friends of my DD who work in community care are having to leave the sector because the mileage rates do not reflect the increases in fuel costs for their cars, so the agency she used to work for has returned all non urgent care contracts, they triaged them as low/med/high and kept only the high ones, it is now very difficult to get even private care.

So those who say locals can go Fxxk themselves, market rules! whats the solution?

I definitely won't stay here any longer than I need to, but unfortunately due to custody arrangements I still have about 6-7 years to live here.

Because our community is so small, I've become a lot more observant, we always have Friday night dinners (I bake the challah), and go to shul as often as we get together (every other week).

I actually really agree with this. I was born and raised in an incredibly expensive Home Counties cities commutable to london. Absolutely no way I could move there after uni. I didn’t kick up a fuss or blame the world I just moved north and adjusted my expectations of my support network. You can’t just live anywhere in the world because you want to 🤷🏼‍♀️

This shows quite a lot of insular thinking

Im a Londoner born and bred. Most Londoners who are born and raised from a London heritage wouldnt necessarily say they are 'english' or 'british' either but they would say 'Im a Londoner'.

Thats how I feel

But I dont live there any more and neither does my partner because we couldnt afford to live there. My family live there (some of them). And Im often homesick for it and identify with it but I dont and cant live there anymore

This is not something limited to the Cornish

London has grown over the centuries because of people who moved there from all sorts of places including Cornwall and Scotland and the rest of the world. You wont hear many Londoners expressing concern about how theres all these incomers to the city from Liverpool, Manchester, the countryside, Cornwall etc etc. Growing up, it was just a normal and natural thing that you hear all sorts of accents in school and work.

I come back to what I said earlier in the thread, which was inconvenient for a lot of people.

People across the UK have predominately voted tory over the last 40 years. This means that they are voting for smaller government, both at national and local levels. They are voting for smaller and smaller public service provision such as transport, health care, schools, libraries, social care, leisure centres, housing support, benefits etc etc
This means that the market does indeed rule because thats what people have voted for.
The SW has more or less (with a few years of exceptions) voted for that.

If they had voted for governments which protected social housing, protected public transport, protected job creation, protected social care and the infrastructure around it, prioritised job creation, prioritised health care and equal access then I might be inclined to have more sympathy.