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Should we ignore our solicitor's advice?

92 replies

ConfusedHouseBuyer · 07/06/2021 21:39

We're buying a house for the first time, and we get the impression that the vendor's solicitor (and thus the vendor) is getting very irritated with our solicitor's thoroughness. He sent of the order of 50 enquiries, and though the vendor's solicitor has been pretty lax in his responses, our solicitor does seem to be repeatedly asking about things that, as far as we can tell, don't matter that much (e.g. requesting planning notices when we've already been provided with completion certificates, and requesting historical conveyances from the mid-1900s).

There are a couple of things that have given us pause, such as an old loft conversion that is not "habitable" by today's standards and was (apparently incorrectly) advertised as a bedroom (though it complied with regulations at the time, so perhaps it's actually fine?). There is also a first floor-level terrace with no documentation, as it was apparently there when the current owners moved in, which is likely not allowed according to current regulations, and may not have even been allowed at the time (we just don't know). But since it's been there for many years, and pre-dates the current owners, would the lack of documentation be a big issue here? It wasn't the reason we chose the house.

Our solicitor is recommending that we try to knock ~4% off the agreed price, on the basis that the house was over-valued by treating the loft conversion as a bedroom, and that there are a few things without complete documentation. But we're really unsure this would be sensible in the current climate, or even if it's reasonable given the circumstances. Are the things I've described the sort that would drive others to negotiate?

He is also saying he expects prices to drop significantly in the relatively near term, and that he thinks we're overpaying on this place, given the issues mentioned above (though we're wondering if we'd encounter these sorts of things in any older house?).

We have no prior experience of this sort of thing, so we don't know what is normal or expected. But the estate agent has told us that he thinks the vendor is more likely to pull out of the sale than negotiate at this point — especially as they feel they've already been asked too many questions. Of course he might just be saying that because it's in his interest to do so, but it seems risky to test it.

I think I just want to understand what is reasonable here. Would you expect to be able to negotiate based on the things mentioned above? Is our solicitor being overzealous? Do most people go ahead with purchases at the original agreed price, even when there are question marks around building regulations compliance of work from decades ago? It seems that our solicitor wants to leave no stone unturned, and nothing unaccounted for, which ordinarily I'd say was a good thing, but I'm wondering if that's realistic here, and if we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot by taking the same approach.

OP posts:
HmmmmmmInteresting · 07/06/2021 21:44

Your solicitor sounds amazing! I usually seem to get really lazy ones. But like you say I'd be worried about pissing off the vendor in the current climate. Watching your thread with interest.

readytosell · 07/06/2021 21:45

It is not your solicitor's job to be advising what price you should be paying, that's between you and the seller (and possibly your mortgage company if necessary).

It's good your solicitor is being thorough, after all they are acting in your interests, but sometimes they can go a bit overboard. Are you paying a fixed fee or by the hour?

sar302 · 07/06/2021 21:47

I mean, no stone unturned is generally something you want in a solicitor! But unless they have a crystal ball, they have no idea what's going to happen to property prices.

Did you survey come back with the surveyors estimate of price?

We offered 385 on something on at 425, and the survey came back with the suggested price of 390. So we were obviously happy. But if we'd offered 425, the survey would have made us have a rethink.

YellowFish12 · 07/06/2021 21:52

What is your solicitor suggesting the solution is to the old work that pre dates the current owners?

NoSquirrels · 07/06/2021 21:53

Solicitors don’t usually get involved in suggesting price negotiations, or speculating on the market, in my experience, so there is something unusual here.

Either they are extremely concerned that the property has a lot of issues, or they are getting involved where they shouldn’t. I don’t think it’s possible to tell from the info given.

As a PP says, what did the survey suggest?

Bamoon · 07/06/2021 21:56

Weirdly building regulations can cause mayhem, it's good they are getting it squared away for you even the chances of anything coming of it are tiny. Advising on price though is out of their remit.

colouringcrayons · 07/06/2021 21:59

The issues around paperwork for loft/terrace are very important - not so much for buying for whenever you want to resell. Your solicitor is doing a decent job - the other party is annoyed because they wanted naive buyers happy to move quickly!

In answer to this question Do most people go ahead with purchases at the original agreed price, even when there are question marks around building regulations compliance of work from decades ago? I can only speak for myself but have withdrawn from a sale before for reasons similar to those you describe.

When you say our solicitor does seem to be repeatedly asking about things that, as far as we can tell, don't matter that much - when did you complete your law degree?

NoSquirrels · 07/06/2021 21:59

Re-reading, I do think that if the loft doesn’t meet regs and the terrace hasn’t been properly approved, these are issues of concern. They might be sorted with indemnity insurance, and they might warrant a price reduction. The vendors (and their solicitors) can’t get pissed off with those enquiries such that you just roll over and back down - if they didn’t get the right advice themselves when they bought (because of a less thorough solicitor) that’s not your fault. Your solicitor is trying to future-proof things for when you eventually sell the property on in however many years.

What do they suggest doing about the terrace?

Can they clarify for you the issue with the loft conversion and whether it’s now legal as a bedroom?

All older houses have issues, but you don’t want to just go “oh well, that’s how it is” if there’s something to be done about it!

MikeWozniaksMohawk · 07/06/2021 22:03

Are you getting a mortgage? In which case presumably your solicitor is also acting for your lender and will have to report to them on the fact that the valuation has been carried out on the incorrect basis and will need to be redone. They are probably anticipating the valuation coming in lower once reissued and getting a jump on negotiations.

ConfusedHouseBuyer · 07/06/2021 22:04

We're paying a fixed fee for our solicitor. We're glad he's thorough in the sense that he's covered all the things we'd want him to cover, and is very responsive. But we do wonder if he takes it a bit far in a way that could be detrimental to the overall goal, e.g. by ignoring the human aspect. The vendor's solicitor has certainly been pretty tardy in his responses, but I think our solicitor might have exhausted the goodwill of the vendor by asking so many questions, including requests for documentation that isn't strictly required, having been superseded by later documentation.

Our survey didn't include a price estimate, but even if it had come back with something lower, I'm not sure if that would've made much difference to the vendor. They had at least two other offers, and are not in a rush to move (no chain etc.). If we tried to lower the price, they may just decide to try their luck on the market again.

Our solicitor seems to think that prices are coming down again (which, to be clear, is not a basis we'd use for negotiation at this stage in the process), but estate agents say they are still sky-high and increasing. Does anyone have a view on that?

OP posts:
DareIask · 07/06/2021 22:07

IME it's unwise to pay for professional advice and then ignore it.

Wegobshite · 07/06/2021 22:07

Well if your paying extra money for something that was wrongly advertised as 4 bed when it’s a 3 bed with a dodgy & unusable loft conversion type bedroom then I think you’re solicitors correct .
If when you tried to sell and you could only sell and advertise it as a 3 bed
I’m sure you would be straight on the phone complaining that your solicitor didn’t spot this and that you paid for a 4 bed

flashbac · 07/06/2021 22:09

@ConfusedHouseBuyer

We're paying a fixed fee for our solicitor. We're glad he's thorough in the sense that he's covered all the things we'd want him to cover, and is very responsive. But we do wonder if he takes it a bit far in a way that could be detrimental to the overall goal, e.g. by ignoring the human aspect. The vendor's solicitor has certainly been pretty tardy in his responses, but I think our solicitor might have exhausted the goodwill of the vendor by asking so many questions, including requests for documentation that isn't strictly required, having been superseded by later documentation.

Our survey didn't include a price estimate, but even if it had come back with something lower, I'm not sure if that would've made much difference to the vendor. They had at least two other offers, and are not in a rush to move (no chain etc.). If we tried to lower the price, they may just decide to try their luck on the market again.

Our solicitor seems to think that prices are coming down again (which, to be clear, is not a basis we'd use for negotiation at this stage in the process), but estate agents say they are still sky-high and increasing. Does anyone have a view on that?

Depends what area the property is in...
Wegobshite · 07/06/2021 22:10

I mean when you looked at it and viewed you believed it to be 4 beds
due to the advertising
Now you know it’s only a three bed do you still want to pay for a 4 bed with one unusable dodgy loft conversion bedroom

ConfusedHouseBuyer · 07/06/2021 22:15

To be clear, there is documentation saying that the loft conversion was up to standard in the 90s, so it's not dodgy in the sense that it was never okay (and it certainly feels/looks like a proper room, like any other in the house). It's just that it doesn't comply with modern regulations. Does this still preclude it from being advertised as a bedroom? Surely this sort of thing must come up all the time, as people don't modify houses every time building regulations change. Or do people rarely advertise loft rooms as habitable spaces if they were converted a while back?

OP posts:
User0ne · 07/06/2021 22:16

If the loft didn't meet regs when it was put in (it needs to have been signed off) then you can be forced to either bring it up to current regs (likely to be £££) or ensure it can't be used as a "habital room" (remove stairs, electric lighting, plasterboards etc).

It will potentially be the same with the balcony.

Even if you don't care about the room/balcony surely you don't want to have to pay to fix it?

Your buyer can probably buy indemnity insurance for not very much which your solicitor might accept but it's unlikely to pay out if you need it as the policies are generally crap.

colouringcrayons · 07/06/2021 22:17

including requests for documentation that isn't strictly required, having been superseded by later documentation I ask again - when did you complete your law degree? How do you know this documentation isn't needed - who has told you it isn't needed?

You sound a bit foolish - your solicitor has presumably identified that you have been charged a four-bed price for a three-bed house and you are annoyed with him!

colouringcrayons · 07/06/2021 22:19

Or do people rarely advertise loft rooms as habitable spaces if they were converted a while back? Very common to see houses with an extra 'useable space' in the loft rather than it being listed as a bedroom.

ConfusedHouseBuyer · 07/06/2021 22:20

The loft conversion was done before completion certificates existed, so there's no "sign-off" documentation. But we do have a copy of a letter from the council from the mid-90s saying that the loft complied with regulations at the time of the letter. So does this make it a "habitable room", or does it still have to comply with modern regulations for that?

OP posts:
ConfusedHouseBuyer · 07/06/2021 22:29

@colouringcrayons We asked the solicitor about every point on which he was pressing the vendor, and the solicitor confirmed that much of the documentation isn't strictly required (he just likes to get it for "completeness", which I would be completely on board with if it wasn't for the reaction of the vendor and their solicitor, who seem to be getting very annoyed with the "excessive" number of questions).

And there's no need to be rude. We are simply trying to establish, in light of the fact that our solicitor does tend to go overboard with questions, whether the remaining concerns are serious or not. And how exactly most people deal with these sorts of things, which must come up a lot in all but the newest houses.

OP posts:
colouringcrayons · 07/06/2021 22:32

I'm not being rude - I genuinely think you sound a bit foolish because your solicitor has found out some issues with the paperwork and rather than being glad he is being through you are annoyed with him.

If you lost this purchase, what would be the downside for you? Could you find somewhere else to buy?

titchy · 07/06/2021 22:34

How come your survey didn't give you a value? That's odd unless you're a cash buyer?

Remember the vendor's solicitor is working for them. The estate agent is working for them. Your solicitor is the only one representing your interests. The vendor and EA don't give one shiny shit about you.

Listen to your solicitor. And get a surveyors valuation!

colouringcrayons · 07/06/2021 22:34

And of course the paperwork isn't strictly required - but he is getting it for completeness. This will benefit you when you come to sell.

CliffsofMohair · 07/06/2021 22:42

We pulled out of a purchase for similar reasons - advertised as 4 bed but loft conversion of dubious origin.

Sporranrummager · 07/06/2021 22:44

Conveyancing solicitor here (although currently not practising).
Unless you are a cash buyer YOU ARE NOT BUYING THIS HOUSE, YOUR MORTGAGE LENDER IS.
Your solicitor acts for your mortgage lender as well as you. Should they? Probably not, but that's a whole other argument.

If you don't pay your mortgage the only come back the lender has is to repossess the house and sell it.

If that happens and it turns out it's not worth what they loaned you, because it's only three bedrooms and the terrace is in breach of building regs, they won't be pursuing you for the money, they'll be suing your solicitor.
Your solicitor is doing exactly what they should be doing
It would be interesting to know whether the vendors' solicitor purchased the house for them originally, and is being asked by the vendor why these questions weren't asked when they bought it. That happens more than you'd think!