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Should we ignore our solicitor's advice?

92 replies

ConfusedHouseBuyer · 07/06/2021 21:39

We're buying a house for the first time, and we get the impression that the vendor's solicitor (and thus the vendor) is getting very irritated with our solicitor's thoroughness. He sent of the order of 50 enquiries, and though the vendor's solicitor has been pretty lax in his responses, our solicitor does seem to be repeatedly asking about things that, as far as we can tell, don't matter that much (e.g. requesting planning notices when we've already been provided with completion certificates, and requesting historical conveyances from the mid-1900s).

There are a couple of things that have given us pause, such as an old loft conversion that is not "habitable" by today's standards and was (apparently incorrectly) advertised as a bedroom (though it complied with regulations at the time, so perhaps it's actually fine?). There is also a first floor-level terrace with no documentation, as it was apparently there when the current owners moved in, which is likely not allowed according to current regulations, and may not have even been allowed at the time (we just don't know). But since it's been there for many years, and pre-dates the current owners, would the lack of documentation be a big issue here? It wasn't the reason we chose the house.

Our solicitor is recommending that we try to knock ~4% off the agreed price, on the basis that the house was over-valued by treating the loft conversion as a bedroom, and that there are a few things without complete documentation. But we're really unsure this would be sensible in the current climate, or even if it's reasonable given the circumstances. Are the things I've described the sort that would drive others to negotiate?

He is also saying he expects prices to drop significantly in the relatively near term, and that he thinks we're overpaying on this place, given the issues mentioned above (though we're wondering if we'd encounter these sorts of things in any older house?).

We have no prior experience of this sort of thing, so we don't know what is normal or expected. But the estate agent has told us that he thinks the vendor is more likely to pull out of the sale than negotiate at this point — especially as they feel they've already been asked too many questions. Of course he might just be saying that because it's in his interest to do so, but it seems risky to test it.

I think I just want to understand what is reasonable here. Would you expect to be able to negotiate based on the things mentioned above? Is our solicitor being overzealous? Do most people go ahead with purchases at the original agreed price, even when there are question marks around building regulations compliance of work from decades ago? It seems that our solicitor wants to leave no stone unturned, and nothing unaccounted for, which ordinarily I'd say was a good thing, but I'm wondering if that's realistic here, and if we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot by taking the same approach.

OP posts:
quizqueen · 08/06/2021 00:43

I would listen to your solicitor who will have encountered many different situations before re planning and, when you come to sell on, you will be grateful for his/her thoroughness. If fact, if there was any whiff of a discrepancy concerning past planning permissions I, personally , would pull out of the sale because I would feel uneasy about it.

ConfusedHouseBuyer · 08/06/2021 01:12

What our solicitor is saying is that he thinks we have good grounds for negotiation, and he is encouraging us to try. Which is all very well in the abstract, but if we try to negotiate and the vendor says "sod this, we're not selling to you because you've already been enough of a pain with all your enquiries, and now you're asking for money off", then we will lose the house. And we'd rather that didn't happen, because we like it, and haven't found many that we like. We don't object at all to him getting as much information as possible about the house — quite the contrary. It's just that the thing about negotiating has made me question everything, and I wanted to find out if others would try to negotiate on the basis of the things I've mentioned, or if some level of uncertainty is just inevitable with houses of a certain age, and is something you would accept.

OP posts:
MadMadMadamMim · 08/06/2021 01:57

You are first time buyers, with a decent sounding solicitor.

Listen to him. You are pretty ignorant on the house buying process and you are paying for professional advice, but seem to think you might just as well ignore it.

I can't imagine why.

CatAndHisKit · 08/06/2021 02:12

I don't think this is enough basis for negotiation if the vendor has another two offers, and the council letter exists to approve the loft. As a vendor, why would you drop the price - they will NOT.

Of course you could try and then back down, after al lthe faff they are unlikely to flounce just because you've asked - but accepted their refusal.

LemonSwan · 08/06/2021 02:15

It depends on the house. If its a standard 30s semi or a standard terrace etc then it doesn't matter unless the thing has subsidence. Does it have a good boiler, good windows and good electrics. Good to go.

If it has had a load of dodgy build work and is no longer a normal house then thats another point. What exactly is it about the loft/ roof conversion that is an issue. Is it something fundamental like not enough head height or an issue that is unresolvable and you wish to alter/ extend the roof conversion then fair enough.

WRT prices - houses are only worth what someone is willing to pay for them. Are you paying 'immaculate top end fittings' house prices or are you paying the 'ok fixtures and fittings price' IYSWIM.

Our house is priced for doing work. Its not perfect. We did upstairs but we cba to do downstairs or replace some of the windows with misting. Its 25k less than the immaculate one down the road. If someone wants reductions based on this or that I will tell them to take a hike and go buy the finished one at finished price.

NoSquirrels · 08/06/2021 07:35

I wanted to find out if others would try to negotiate on the basis of the things I've mentioned, or if some level of uncertainty is just inevitable with houses of a certain age, and is something you would accept.

Buying is very much an individual decision based on your risk tolerance and your attitude to houses as either an asset or a home - head vs heart.

You don’t have to renegotiate- the solicitor is just advising. If the estate agent says they’ll walk you can take that advice instead if you think it’s likely - but be aware your solicitor is working for you , the estate agent is working for the vendor (and themselves) to get the best price. They’re not impartial.

Regardless of whether you renegotiate price, you need to sort out the terrace issue. This may come at a cost to the vendor anyway and that could be an issue regardless of whether you renegotiate e.g. indemnity insurance. I personally would not ignore this (which it sounds like you are inclined to, for a smooth sale?).

Presumably the people who recommended your solicitor were all happy in the end - even the ones who walked away from sales/sales fell through? Otherwise you wouldn’t have gone with him. So ‘overly fussy’ is, as I say, a risk tolerance thing.

Ask yourself - if I complete on this house at £X and within 6 months I discover it’s now worth thousands less, will I still feel happy I proceeded? If I want to do work on the house in future and the planning issues are a problem then, will I be happy I proceeded?

It’s your money and your risk tolerance.

Bamoon · 08/06/2021 07:40

He's possibly just covering his back, if in say 5 years you go to sell and the value has dropped a lot, although legally he isn't at risk of whatever, perhaps he feels that reputationally he would rather be able to say told ya so. But if you are happy with the price, I'd just say thanks for the advice, we see what you are saying but can confirm we are happy to proceed as is and want to keep the ball rolling quickly.

YellowFish12 · 08/06/2021 07:43

There are no grounds for negotiation re the loft room - it was built 40 years ago 🤷‍♀️ and there is evidence document that. Your survey didn’t pick up any issues (eg bouncy floor/recent movement)?

I think I had your solicitor on the other side when I sold my house who kept asking for documents re the loft extension AND I DIDNT HAVE A LOFT EXTENSION ARGH IT WAS ORIGINAL TO THE HOUSE BUILT WHEN VICTORIA WAS ON THE THRONE 😂 still winds me up now.

They also wanted building regs for the removal of wall between kitchen and diner which was done prior to my vendors (prior to 1980), clearly had a ginormous supporting beam and the buyers structural surveyor didn’t note any movement or cause for concern with that.

You have to be somewhat pragmatic about buying an old house.

Anyway after a ridiculous amount of back and forth and the solicitor still being a dick even after being shown photos of the street from like 1909 - it’s like, there is nothing else I can do here. I’m showing you evidence there is no loft extension, you’re asking for building regs for a non existent loft extension. We are at a stalemate. I said “get read and we exchange next Friday or it goes back on the market” and miraculously we did exchange. I was 100% ready to go back to the market though.

YellowFish12 · 08/06/2021 07:46

Oh the terrace thing is a bit more unclear - I think indemnity may be a good idea to protect against retrospective action however if it is already more than 10 years old you are unlikely to have any enforcement. An indemnity won’t cost more than a couple hundred, your buyers may pay or might tell you to pay as it’s for your benefit.

Personally I think indemnities are a bit of a scam and are being pushed by some solicitors for things they don’t really protect against for the commission.

maybeshesawomble · 08/06/2021 07:58

I have been on the vendor’s side of this type of solicitor. My favourite enquiry being ‘is the stop cock modern plastic?’. Also had questions about a 1980s loft conversion having provided the paper work as ‘documents look different from those provided for 2011 work’. Oh and requests for FENSA certs for skylights in a brand new extension which even a quick Google tells you is a building regs issue as confirmed by our solicitor (for which we had the certificate) not a FENSA cert. it turned out that the buyers were using a fixed price firm and the questions were from an inexperienced paralegal and not been near anyone qualified. It got ridiculous - and as we had had other offers and weren’t in a rush we walked, sold for a higher price and got things through quickly with sensible (& valid) enquiries.

Soontobe60 · 08/06/2021 07:59

@ConfusedHouseBuyer

The loft conversion was done before completion certificates existed, so there's no "sign-off" documentation. But we do have a copy of a letter from the council from the mid-90s saying that the loft complied with regulations at the time of the letter. So does this make it a "habitable room", or does it still have to comply with modern regulations for that?
Yes it does. As others have already said, people’s houses don’t comply with building regs every time the regs are updated. What’s important is that they were compliant with any legislation at the time the work was carried out. In your case, it sounds like they were, and a simple indemnity policy would cover any further queries. Your solicitor should not be commenting on the price you’re paying for the house - it’s not their remit to do that!.
Roselilly36 · 08/06/2021 08:09

Listen to your solicitor, they have your best interests at heart. My solicitor is amazing, been so pleased with her, she gave me some advice last week, when we decided to pull out of a purchase. She said “don’t buy a problem, if it’s a problem buying, it will be a problem selling. Sage advice.

Ickythefirebobby · 08/06/2021 08:24

@DareIask

IME it's unwise to pay for professional advice and then ignore it.
This. He is a qualified professional. You’ve never bought a house before so I’m not sure why you’d consider ignoring his advice. I wouldn’t pay over the odds for a house, it could bite you on the bum down the line and it sounds like these are definitely the kind of issues that should reduce the price of the house. If you buy the house without the necessary documentation that it now retrospectively requires, then you’re going to have the same issues if and when you come to sell.

Your solicitor is being to do a job and it sounds like he’s doing it thoroughly. The human element is completely irrelevant, although you do sound like the kind of buyer that can be completely twirled, which form the seller is probably a gift.

ChilliMum · 08/06/2021 08:33

Another one who has been on the other side of this. Your solicitor is just doing their job but it really depends on exactly what they are saying to the vendors.

The solicitor for our buyers sent a list of issues, we responded, there was no way we could do anything about some of them - It was a house on a 1950s estate and there were some pretty weird caveats in the deeds such as one that said that the house couldn't be extended (we had a 2 story extension- all permissions granted and fully signed off - as did most houses on the estate) the same section also stated that the houses on the estate must be sold to professionals like doctors and solicitors and not trades people (there were many tradespeople on the estate). The solicitor said we needed to get retrospective permission from the company that built the house for our extension (the company folded decades ago).

There were also a couple of minor things re: a broken switch on the cooker etc.. However we were no longer living in the country so getting little things fixed was a bit of a challenge. We would have been happy to have the cost of these things knocked off they were very minor.

I spoke to our solicitor who said our responses were fine within the law and if the buyers weren't happy we could just remove the £1000 range cooker they were getting free with the house.

All our responses were ignored with the same requests just sent back time and time again. Tbh this is what was making me annoyed.

In the end I phoned the estate agent explained the situation and sent them the list with our explanations. They spoke directly to the buyers who were happy with our responses and the purchase went through. The solicitor just wasted a lot of everyone's time by sending back the same list without any agreement or negotiation.

Busybee5000 · 08/06/2021 08:48

We have a 90s loft conversion in our new house and paperwork etc is all there but it’s more the point that it is too hot, electric outdated, why did they choose rubbish windows up there etc! However, it doesn’t mean that this caused us a problem buying it, we just need to decide whether to upgrade now we’re in.

I would listen to your solicitor but also to your gut. Do you mind about x,y,z. Does it matter to you? Can you afford to redo the areas that you aren’t happy with? None of it will be illegal if you’ve gone through the proper channels (unless your solicitor says so and then DO listen!) but a matter of what you’re willing to accept.

WindyRose · 08/06/2021 10:43

Another who thinks why pay a solicitor if you don't want to accept what he/she is telling you? Seriously, why didn't you do the legal paperwork yourself and risk buying a problem house. You have stated several times, you are inexperienced in house buying and (sorry) it clearly shows.

You are buying with your heart...the solicitor is advising with his/her head. In saying that, you don't have to take the advice you are paying for, but sure as hell, when/if a problem appears, then I can't see the solicitor would be ready to go in to bat for you.

Please don't think I'm being mean spirited, but you asked a question and it doesn't seem you are ready to hear genuine, well intentioned answers.

Sometimes we find a house we like and it has problems so unless you have deep pockets, it's best to walk away...actually I did this just yesterday. Found a dream house online, but when I looked at current photos 'very closely' I could see water stains on some internal walls. It's a 150 yr old stone house which has been totally renovated internally...but, the exterior hasn't been touched yet and there is evidence of cracked/missing mortar (water ingress), the 5 x chimneys all need work and to top it off, the exterior timber work needs to be repaired and repainted and being a trust listed house there is another level of approvals as exterior work has to be done to their standards.

My pockets aren't deep enough and as much as I would 'love' to buy the house and it would suit perfectly, I've had to pull my head in and I won't even book an inspection. So, as per my suggestion I made my decision with my head, rather than my heart...sometimes it makes sense even if it hurts!!

Wishing you all the best and hope it works in your favour, if not, there are other houses out there. ;-)

colouringcrayons · 08/06/2021 11:07

@Roselilly36

Listen to your solicitor, they have your best interests at heart. My solicitor is amazing, been so pleased with her, she gave me some advice last week, when we decided to pull out of a purchase. She said “don’t buy a problem, if it’s a problem buying, it will be a problem selling. Sage advice.
Totally agree with this advice from the solicitor!
Bythemillpond · 08/06/2021 11:08

Listen to your solicitor, they have your best interests at heart

No they have their own interests at heart not yours.
They don’t want to be sued for making a mistake. If that means you lose out on a house or financially they couldn’t give a stuff.

Your solicitor shouldn’t be advising you to renegotiate. Is he going to pay for the extra money if your buyer walks and you have to start again with mortgage application fees and solicitors fees and surveyors fees. If not then at some point you have to make a decision. Either buy the place or don’t.

Hawkins001 what else do you want to be put in place if a letter signing off the building regs from the 90s won’t suffice

YellowFish12 · 08/06/2021 11:09

Sometimes we find a house we like and it has problems so unless you have deep pockets, it's best to walk away

But what problem actually is there?!?!

A loft conversion done 40 years ago is not a problem unless you have movement or something indicates it’s not structurally sound.

Level75 · 08/06/2021 11:12

I'm a solicitor and I'd be getting annoyed with yours. He sounds overly cautious and it's jeopardising your sale. Unless you have a mortgage company refusing to lend unless the price is lowered, I'd crack on ASAP with the process at the agreed price. Ask your solicitor to expedite matters and only ask about essential rather than nice to have docs/answers.

Bythemillpond · 08/06/2021 11:17

WindyRose but this isn’t what is happening here.
This is about paperwork and not accepting a piece of paper stating that a loft room was converted into a bedroom and it was done up to building regs at the time

What you pay for something isn’t in his remit to query so what exactly does he want?

ConfusedHouseBuyer · 08/06/2021 11:22

It seems that those saying "why pay a solicitor if you're not going to take their advice" are assuming that it's all-or-nothing on the advice front, and that this is a purely about getting a "good investment". Of course we are listening to his advice. But we are also trying to make our own judgements based on that. He himself has agreed that most of the enquiries still outstanding are unimportant (after we asked him about the potential consequences of letting them drop). He seems to be looking at it from purely a financial investment point of view, which is fine given that he's not the one looking to buy it. But for us it is an opportunity to move to a nicer area, have more space, and enjoy our surroundings. There are very few houses satisfying our non-negotiable requirements coming up at the moment, and if we have to wait, say, another year to find one, then that's an extra year we've spent in a location we don't like, and an extra year we've spent looking for houses. Surely the time cost is also relevant? Sure, it will be a pain if we have to spend money we didn't anticipate having to spend, but we have a bit of leeway, and I wonder if the overall (not just monetary) cost will be greater if we see this purely as an investment, rather than a home that we can live in.

OP posts:
Melitza · 08/06/2021 11:26

Does the loft conversion have a fire door and the correct head room of 2.2m?
These two points are important i think regardless of old regulations. If the head room is too low then no it's not a proper bedroom now imo.

Melitza · 08/06/2021 11:29

I don't think your vendors will pull out because they will potentially have the same issue with other buyers.

Bythemillpond · 08/06/2021 12:40

Melitza

I don't think your vendors will pull out because they will potentially have the same issue with other buyers

What issue?

The loft conversion needed building regs in the 90s. There is a letter dated in the 90s stating that it complies with building regs. What would cause an issue

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