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Should we ignore our solicitor's advice?

92 replies

ConfusedHouseBuyer · 07/06/2021 21:39

We're buying a house for the first time, and we get the impression that the vendor's solicitor (and thus the vendor) is getting very irritated with our solicitor's thoroughness. He sent of the order of 50 enquiries, and though the vendor's solicitor has been pretty lax in his responses, our solicitor does seem to be repeatedly asking about things that, as far as we can tell, don't matter that much (e.g. requesting planning notices when we've already been provided with completion certificates, and requesting historical conveyances from the mid-1900s).

There are a couple of things that have given us pause, such as an old loft conversion that is not "habitable" by today's standards and was (apparently incorrectly) advertised as a bedroom (though it complied with regulations at the time, so perhaps it's actually fine?). There is also a first floor-level terrace with no documentation, as it was apparently there when the current owners moved in, which is likely not allowed according to current regulations, and may not have even been allowed at the time (we just don't know). But since it's been there for many years, and pre-dates the current owners, would the lack of documentation be a big issue here? It wasn't the reason we chose the house.

Our solicitor is recommending that we try to knock ~4% off the agreed price, on the basis that the house was over-valued by treating the loft conversion as a bedroom, and that there are a few things without complete documentation. But we're really unsure this would be sensible in the current climate, or even if it's reasonable given the circumstances. Are the things I've described the sort that would drive others to negotiate?

He is also saying he expects prices to drop significantly in the relatively near term, and that he thinks we're overpaying on this place, given the issues mentioned above (though we're wondering if we'd encounter these sorts of things in any older house?).

We have no prior experience of this sort of thing, so we don't know what is normal or expected. But the estate agent has told us that he thinks the vendor is more likely to pull out of the sale than negotiate at this point — especially as they feel they've already been asked too many questions. Of course he might just be saying that because it's in his interest to do so, but it seems risky to test it.

I think I just want to understand what is reasonable here. Would you expect to be able to negotiate based on the things mentioned above? Is our solicitor being overzealous? Do most people go ahead with purchases at the original agreed price, even when there are question marks around building regulations compliance of work from decades ago? It seems that our solicitor wants to leave no stone unturned, and nothing unaccounted for, which ordinarily I'd say was a good thing, but I'm wondering if that's realistic here, and if we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot by taking the same approach.

OP posts:
seasidemafia · 07/06/2021 22:44

I bought a property a couple of years ago and have recently sold, as my first solicitor 'didn't bother' getting documents for completeness it's cost me approx £600 in indemnity policies to be able to sell.

Wimpeyspread · 07/06/2021 22:46

You have no previous experience of buying houses, and your solicitor will presumably have plenty of experience in conveyancing, so you would be very foolish to ignore his advice. If you buy the house and discover problems you were unaware of because the right questions were not asked you could in theory have some come back against your solicitor, so for him it’s sensible to make sure he has asked all those questions. If the vendors pull out because they don’t like the questions, it would suggest there is something to hide

colouringcrayons · 07/06/2021 22:47

If the vendors pull out because they don’t like the questions, it would suggest there is something to hide agree with this - there is no way it would be faster for the vendor to go back to the market and start again from the beginning than for their solictor to just get on and answer the questions.

YellowFish12 · 07/06/2021 22:47

The loft conversion was done before completion certificates existed, so there's no "sign-off" documentation. But we do have a copy of a letter from the council from the mid-90s saying that the loft complied with regulations at the time of the letter.

If that is the case, it is a habitable room and can be marketed as a bedroom. Of course people don’t upgrade their extensions and electrics etc every time the regs change.

I don’t understand what your solicitor wants from the vendors? If the docs don’t exist they don’t exist 🤷‍♀️ do they want an indemnity? For what purpose? What risk is the solicitor trying to protect against?

Livingintheclouds · 07/06/2021 23:00

Most houses out there would not meet current regulations. I had the ceilings down in my current 150 year old house when the building regs guy came about something else. He commented that the joists looked 'a bit thin' and would not meet current regulations. So what? I wasn't doing anything up there, I was replacing the ceilings. He couldn't make me change them. And the roof has been doing just fine for the last 150 years. Does this make the roof 'illegal'? Of course not.
If the loft met regulations at the time it was built and you are not altering it, then it is a legal habitable bedroom. If you were to change it (like add a dormer, for example, if it doesn't have one), then you would have to make sure it met current regs. It's the same for anything - original windows or those that predate FENSA do not meet current regs. Again, so what? Unless you are changing them, they don't have to.
If the loft is still doing its job after X years then don't worry about it.
And frankly, if you were to go to the expense of altering things every time building regs changed, you'd have the builders in constantly. Things only have to meet building regulations that are in force at the time of the building or alteration.
Your solicitor is being over zealous. I've just dealt with one, whose box ticking overtook common sense. He kept asking for things that didn't exist: gas cert (no gas in building), new boiler info (no new boiler), assigned parking missing from deeds (there was no assigned parking). He even requested an indemnity policy as the head lease did not specifically state that the specific unit had access to the communal grounds or areas of the building, where anyone would realise that all the properties did, and all had enjoyed the use since the original conversion, and you could not access the flat if you couldn't, and the lease did not have to name each and every individual flat.
Your solicitor works for you. You instruct him as to what questions you need answered. He does the legal bit - but within reason. Asking for irrelevant paperwork for 'completeness' is nonsensical.

ConfusedHouseBuyer · 07/06/2021 23:16

Yes, to confirm (and as @YellowFish12 has quoted me saying), The loft conversion was done before completion certificates existed, so there's no "sign-off" documentation. But we do have a copy of a letter from the council from the mid-90s saying that the loft complied with regulations at the time of the letter.

So does this mean the number of bedrooms was correctly advertised? This seems to be the main point here. I am getting so confused, because people seem to disagree on this.

OP posts:
colouringcrayons · 07/06/2021 23:18

So does this mean the number of bedrooms was correctly advertised? Your solicitor is the person you should be asking. No one on here knows what he knows, as he has all the documents.

BluebellsGreenbells · 07/06/2021 23:22

My first thought is you have a call center lawyer - they have young unqualified staff who put together the basic paper work and ask for XYZ and when ALL of it is cleared it goes to an actual solicitor.

The fixed price suggests you opted for the estate agents recommendation rather than an independent one?

Always poor choice.m

milveycrohn · 07/06/2021 23:23

Building regulations change over time, and if the loft extension met the buildings regulations at the time, then surely, this should be OK, unless it was so long ago, that the house (and extension) has fallen into a state of disrepair.
However, I would presume building regs signoff? would be part of the council search.

stevalnamechanger · 07/06/2021 23:24

He sounds brilliant . Please PM his details .

Why pay someone to protect you if you're not going to heed his advice ?

Jonnywishbone · 07/06/2021 23:30

Your solicitor sounds dreadful. 1) He should keep his nose out of the price. 2) If the rooms were built to building regs at the time of work there is no issue (were they supposed to use a crystal ball when they did the work in the 1990s to guess building regs in 2021?). 3) Most places built 20 years ago aren't to building regs today, most wiring older than 30 years old aren't to modern regulations.

Your solicitor is a total time waster. Ask him if the house you are buying is to modern building regs? Unless it is a new build the answer is no.

ToExtendOrNotToExtend · 07/06/2021 23:33

My solicitor told me to accept whatever the Vendor says and wants, of course I didn't. She is very expensive and recommended by the agent, that's the only mistake I made with the house purchase.
I would like to have your solicitor's details, great to have someone who truly acts for you.

katmarie · 07/06/2021 23:37

A quick Google tells me that building regs for loft conversions came in, in the mid to late eighties. So I think your solicitor might have a point.

ConfusedHouseBuyer · 07/06/2021 23:41

@katmarie To be clear, the letter from the council in the mid-90s said that the loft conversion complied with regulations at the time of the letter (however the loft conversion was done earlier than that — in the 80s at least, prior to the current owners moving in).

OP posts:
Bythemillpond · 07/06/2021 23:51

But if the letter says everything was up to standard in the 90s then that should suffice.

I think this solicitor sounds like he is getting too involved. It isn’t his job to tell you whether you are over or underpaying for this house. Is he going to pay you the money you are going to lose if you miss the stamp duty deadline or if you walk away snd property sky rockets upwards.

I have had surveyors telling me that a 300 year old cottage was going to be bull dozed by the council as it didn’t have planning permission and solicitors who can’t add up or get so wound up in the nitty gritty they miss the big picture. One was so focused on every little detail of the conveyancing he was doing on his own house he missed the fact that he was only buying the leasehold

How old is this solicitor as I always seem to find the youngsters are so earnest about not making a mistake they can’t see that what happened 30 or 300 years ago didn’t comply with today’s standards and end up costing you money

Bythemillpond · 07/06/2021 23:52

I can’t see why he is advising you that there is a problem with the loft bedroom

ConfusedHouseBuyer · 08/06/2021 00:00

He's not a youngster (and nor was he agent-recommended) — he's been doing this for 20-odd years.

He was recommended by colleagues for being thorough, though some of them felt he went overboard, and a couple said their sales had fallen through as a result of negotiating based on his advice, as their vendors were already fed up due to the number of enquiries he pursued.

It does feel like he is extremely cautious, which overall we appreciate, but as I am perpetually uncertain, I'm finding it hard to be pragmatic about this and work out what really matters.

OP posts:
Kocduw · 08/06/2021 00:01

Expecting certificates for work done 35+ years ago is a stretch. The vendor has a letter from the local authority so I would rely on that, with the benefit of an indemnity policy if you are risk averse.

Building control would never enforce on that basis and I think there is a 6 year time limit and you have a letter from them anyway.

If there were a significant issue or defect on this or the terrace, it would have become apparent in the intervening 35 years.

ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn · 08/06/2021 00:03

I had something similar with my first purchase. It was a 3 bed Victorian terrace with an original loft room. The solicitor raised enquiries about the loft's compliance and when it had been converted, except it hadn't, and I was able to show that all of the houses in that stretch of the street had been built with loft rooms, and that was fine.

BluebellsGreenbells · 08/06/2021 00:06

He was recommended by colleagues for being thorough, though some of them felt he went overboard, and a couple said their sales had fallen through as a result of negotiating based on his advice, as their vendors were already fed up due to the number of enquiries he pursued

They why did you hire him?

Hawkins001 · 08/06/2021 00:08

@ConfusedHouseBuyer

We're buying a house for the first time, and we get the impression that the vendor's solicitor (and thus the vendor) is getting very irritated with our solicitor's thoroughness. He sent of the order of 50 enquiries, and though the vendor's solicitor has been pretty lax in his responses, our solicitor does seem to be repeatedly asking about things that, as far as we can tell, don't matter that much (e.g. requesting planning notices when we've already been provided with completion certificates, and requesting historical conveyances from the mid-1900s).

There are a couple of things that have given us pause, such as an old loft conversion that is not "habitable" by today's standards and was (apparently incorrectly) advertised as a bedroom (though it complied with regulations at the time, so perhaps it's actually fine?). There is also a first floor-level terrace with no documentation, as it was apparently there when the current owners moved in, which is likely not allowed according to current regulations, and may not have even been allowed at the time (we just don't know). But since it's been there for many years, and pre-dates the current owners, would the lack of documentation be a big issue here? It wasn't the reason we chose the house.

Our solicitor is recommending that we try to knock ~4% off the agreed price, on the basis that the house was over-valued by treating the loft conversion as a bedroom, and that there are a few things without complete documentation. But we're really unsure this would be sensible in the current climate, or even if it's reasonable given the circumstances. Are the things I've described the sort that would drive others to negotiate?

He is also saying he expects prices to drop significantly in the relatively near term, and that he thinks we're overpaying on this place, given the issues mentioned above (though we're wondering if we'd encounter these sorts of things in any older house?).

We have no prior experience of this sort of thing, so we don't know what is normal or expected. But the estate agent has told us that he thinks the vendor is more likely to pull out of the sale than negotiate at this point — especially as they feel they've already been asked too many questions. Of course he might just be saying that because it's in his interest to do so, but it seems risky to test it.

I think I just want to understand what is reasonable here. Would you expect to be able to negotiate based on the things mentioned above? Is our solicitor being overzealous? Do most people go ahead with purchases at the original agreed price, even when there are question marks around building regulations compliance of work from decades ago? It seems that our solicitor wants to leave no stone unturned, and nothing unaccounted for, which ordinarily I'd say was a good thing, but I'm wondering if that's realistic here, and if we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot by taking the same approach.

you have a great asset to your team, that is assisting you, the level of detail and questions being asked need to be asked, otherwise you'll be left carrying the bucket, so to speak if it all goes pickles, as you yourself said:

"We have no prior experience of this sort of thing, so we don't know what is normal or expected. "

There for trust your solicitor,

Hawkins001 · 08/06/2021 00:10

Another factor, which is better, buying the property on ifs, buts, and assumptions, or detailed plans , documents ect as best as they can be ?

Hawkins001 · 08/06/2021 00:12

"It does feel like he is extremely cautious, which overall we appreciate, but as I am perpetually uncertain, I'm finding it hard to be pragmatic about this and work out what really matters"

What matters is all the i,s are dotted and the t,s are crossed as best as possible.

ConfusedHouseBuyer · 08/06/2021 00:13

@BluebellsGreenbells We hired him because he came highly recommended overall. He didn't force anyone to negotiate. The advice from the people who felt he was too much, was basically "he's good, but be aware that you may need to call it some point, as he is overly thorough".

OP posts:
Hawkins001 · 08/06/2021 00:14

@Bythemillpond

But if the letter says everything was up to standard in the 90s then that should suffice.

I think this solicitor sounds like he is getting too involved. It isn’t his job to tell you whether you are over or underpaying for this house. Is he going to pay you the money you are going to lose if you miss the stamp duty deadline or if you walk away snd property sky rockets upwards.

I have had surveyors telling me that a 300 year old cottage was going to be bull dozed by the council as it didn’t have planning permission and solicitors who can’t add up or get so wound up in the nitty gritty they miss the big picture. One was so focused on every little detail of the conveyancing he was doing on his own house he missed the fact that he was only buying the leasehold

How old is this solicitor as I always seem to find the youngsters are so earnest about not making a mistake they can’t see that what happened 30 or 300 years ago didn’t comply with today’s standards and end up costing you money

"But if the letter says everything was up to standard in the 90s then that should suffice." That's where errors happen, when assumptions are made, what may have been ok then may not be ok now, ect better to be certain rather than assuming.