Can LL enter flat without permission?

[wildsummerdreams]

Hi all, our landlord wants to enter the flat for a routine safety inspection, but I'm away travelling and don't want her to be in the flat without us there. I've asked her to rearrange the visit but she's being quite persistent.

I feel this is an invasion of our privacy. Would it be breach of contract if she enters the flat without our permission?

I've had many contractors do just that. The last time was last Wednesday. When I rented it actually pissed be off that the landlord expected me to wait in. I'd have been happier if he'd taken responsibility rather than expecting me to wait in.

If you CHOOSE that, no problem. Let the LL do as they please, if it suits you. The issue is when you don't choose that and they think they can do it anyway. Which they can't.

rented it actually pissed be off that the landlord expected me to wait in.

I think the point is that you aren’t expected to wait in. The point is that you tell the LL a time that is convenient to you to have a contractor come round, the same as you would if you had a plumber come round to a house you owned. Imagine the conversation if you owned a house:

“mr plumber, I have a leaky tap in the bathroom can you come and fix it?”

“Of course valued client, I can be there Monday or Tuesday, which suits you?”

“Sorry mr plumber, neither of those suit me, how about next week?”

“Next week valued client? Sure, I can be there Wednesday morning.”

“Wednesday mr plumber? Great I’ll expect you at 9am, see you then.”

You would NOT expect:

“I’ll be there Thursday and if you’re not in well too bad I’m coming in anyway.”

As a renter the second response is effectively what the LL is doing if they access the property at their convenience, not yours.

My point is why wouldn't you want someone to come and check that everything is safe?! It makes no sense to me. All I would need is a chance to make sure no knickers or bras are lying around!
I

My point is why wouldn't you want someone to come and check that everything is safe?! It makes no sense to me

It makes no sense to you why people don't want strangers going into their home when they aren't there? Seriously, you're just baffled by that?

Oh ffs if you have a full time job when is someone going to be able to come and do checks?! Grow up. You still can't answer the goddamn essential question - do you want the safety checks done or not?
Yet again on MN the tenant is always right. They are entitled to a safe and well maintained home but don't have to allow access to anyone who can help achieve that. Hey maybe brownies and elves will visit during the night!

do you want the safety checks done or not?

Not when I'm not there, no.As is my legal right. So really, who cares what you think? Law is on my side.

Hidden, you clearly do not live in central London. And I suspect most people have to accept four hour time slots, not appointments.

Conversation:
Question: could you fix a leaky tap?
Answer: is it within congestion charge?
Yes
I expect to be in the area next Wednesday but will have some other jobs so cant tell you what time
Ok can you call me half an hour in advance so I can meet you there, as I dont like to wait inside a tenanted property.

Me to tenant. I have found someone who can do the job next Wednesday. Are you ok with me letting them in, or do you want to be there.

The tenant does not want to take time off work, and presumably considers one of the advantages of renting is to have someone else organise the tedious maintenance stuff. And does not see a difference in that and allowing a cleaning firm in to do a weekly clean.

Very occassionally the time wont suit and I will rearrange. But the idea that a tenant would choose to take annual leave in order to be present when a workman, supervised by the landlady, comes in, is a new one on me.

In parallel the rapid expansion of HMO licensing regimes across London is generating a huge demand for a limited number of people qualified to do the inspections and follow up work required. I dont like it, and I am sure my tenants are not delighted either. But it needs to be done, and you take whatever time the electrician gives you.

At the moment I let to French, Chinese, Americans, Australians, Spanish and 4 sets of British. I have also recently let to Russians, Japanese, Germans, Zimbabweans, Indians, and South AfrIcans. I could only see one of the British tenancies being a bit 'my legal rights' and even then I would expect a desire to get the work done plus not wanting to take time off work would sway them. And rightly or not, they will be concerned that if they are too awkward I might not renew.

Good plan, let to foreigners as much as possible so they don't know their legal rights! Aren't you clever

Don't know if this helps answer the questions:
It says tenants are entitled to quiet enjoyment of the property; but it also states that treatments must allow LL access with min. 24hr notice required.

*tenants, lol. Bloody autocorrect!

ScienceisTruth, if you look back to pages 3 and 4 you'll see we've discussed the 24-hr rule before. It's complicated but, no: landlord definitely does not have automatic right of access just because they gave 24-hr notice. A landlord letting themselves in against the tenant's expressed wishes is in very big trouble, even if they gave 24 hours' notice.

Not saying it's right for a tenant to refuse all landlord access; mutual compromise and cooperation is always recommended. Ultimately, though, if a landlord wants to enter a property against the tenant's wishes, they must take further legal action, because just letting themselves in (regardless of notice given or whatever's written in the contract) legally leaves them vulnerable to charges of harassment and trespass, and this is considered a serious issue.

A landlord who says that it's 'ridiculous' has not properly understood the transfer of rights which occurred when they formally let the property to a tenant; yes, landlord still owns and bears responsibility for the property, but they have temporarily lost automomatic, unqualified right of entry. This seems very hard for some landlords to grasp.

As far as I am aware the landlord can enter for routine maintenance or to assess if needed with reasonable notice. There’s no need for consent and it’s irrelevant if it’s against the tenants wishes. It would in no way constitute harassment. Of course any good landlord would want to keep good relations with their tenants but any good landlord would also want to ensure a fire safety check is carried out reasonably promptly.

It’s not my area but I have a bit of general experience and I can’t see how all the crazy stuff on this thread about how it’s against the law and any landlord who entered to carry out a fire safety check would be in big trouble is in any way correct.

Could the people claiming that it’s harassment/ not permitted please post authority.

And by authority I mean case law or a statute (with a case interpreting it or guidance on interpretation) that says that is the law that a landlord can’t enter to carry out maintenance with notice.

not crazed ranting that ITS THE LAW.

I expect to be in the area next Wednesday but will have some other jobs so cant tell you what time
Ok can you call me half an hour in advance so I can meet you there, as I dont like to wait inside a tenanted property.

And yet, in my own house, if that day didn’t suit me I would tell the contractor to come another day that did suit.

If you’re having the wall of your bathroom retiled and the contractor says “I’ll be there Monday” but your infirm, frail and easily distraught grandmother is staying with you that week, you would tell the contractor to come another day...it’s really not that complicated.

Just because it suits the contractor doesn’t mean it suits the tenant. And just because it suits the LL and the contractor doesn’t mean it suits the tenant. I’m finding this hard to explain more simply.

There’s no need for consent and it’s irrelevant if it’s against the tenants wishes

I can't believe anyone actually thinks its perfectly legal to just enter someone elses home as you like just because you own the building they live in!
Simple logic tells you how wrong you are, surely?

The law, tawny port. If you are saying it’s illegal what law is it against? What you think is logical is nothing to do with anything.

The same law that means I cant walk into your house as I like But also the Housing Act 1988 for a start.

homelet.co.uk/landlord-insurance/tips/your-rights-for-inspecting-or-viewing-a-property-as-a-landlord

To clarify, always be aware that it’s, in fact, illegal for a landlord or agent to enter a property without agreement from the tenant

www.landlordlawblog.co.uk/2014/09/09/all-about-landlords-rights-to-go-into-their-tenants-property/

specialist landlord and tenant lawyer Tessa Shepperson of LandlordLawBlog says:. "Under the Protection from Eviction Act 1977 landlords must not do anything which could be deemed 'harassment', and entering a tenant’s home without asking first is a prime example of this

According to Section 11, from The Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, the landlord must give you 24 hours’ notice before entering the property for any reason such as repairs.

The landlord does have the right to carry out inspections or make repairs but must seek permission to do so from the tenant prior to entering.

The fact that your landlord may have a key does not make it okay for him to enter your home anytime he pleases, just like if it was a complete stranger – anyone accessing your property without permission can be found guilty of harassment.

from www.carterlaw.co.uk/can-landlord-enter-property-without-me-being-there/

Pretty sure specialist property lawyers know what they are talking about?

That's not law, that is somebody's interpretation. What the law says is this '(3B)A person shall not be guilty of an offence under subsection (3A) above if he proves that he had reasonable grounds for doing the acts or withdrawing or withholding the services in question.' So reasonable grounds such as fulfilling statutory duties in accordance with the Gas Safety(Installation and Use) Regulations 1998.

Yes, its an expert tenancy lawyers explanation of the law in simple terms so idiots can understand it.
Clearly not simple enough for you though

The point is that the law is conflicted on this issue and in the end it will be down to reasonableness. So it depends on for what reason you are entering the property. My experience is that if a ll gives notice under s11 that they will be entering the property in order to fulfil their statutory duties no court is going to say that is harassment. In practice if you have a difficult tenant who is awkward about accessing the property you would probably also serve a notice on ground 12 and s21 if outside the fixed period. That is for business reasons. Basically if I cannot enter the property for a 6 monthly check to ensure there are no issues then I cannot look after the property adequately and it becomes difficult to fulfil those duties.

not simple enough for you tawny port it seems. It says on your post that "Section 11, from The Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, the landlord must give you 24 hours’ notice before entering the property for any reason such as repairs" Yet you are claiming that as authority that the landlord cant enter to carry out a fire safety inspection and thats harrassment?