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Original poster

Can LL enter flat without permission?

217 replies

wildsummerdreams · 18/04/2018 14:09

Hi all, our landlord wants to enter the flat for a routine safety inspection, but I'm away travelling and don't want her to be in the flat without us there. I've asked her to rearrange the visit but she's being quite persistent.

I feel this is an invasion of our privacy. Would it be breach of contract if she enters the flat without our permission?

OP posts:

Want2bSupermum · 18/04/2018 17:47

Actually the fire safety inspection has a deadline that it must be completed by. If it's not completed by this date the building insurance is invalid should there be a fire. Your lease would also be subject to health and safety violations with this inspection not completed before it expires.

I'm a LL and these inspections can be very challenging to arrange. The LL should offer to be there and should offer to provide a certificate of insurance of the person doing the inspection. You don't need to be there and I would be mightily annoyed with a tenant being inflexible considering I use a vendor who has very limited availability because they are excellent. For a couple of tenants who are disabled the inspection is a little bit more thorough and I pay for someone from the fire department to come to make sure it's safe for the occupants and their unique needs.

Slievenamon · 18/04/2018 19:02

You don't need to be there and I would be mightily annoyed with a tenant being inflexible considering I use a vendor who has very limited availability because they are excellent

Why would any tenant let people in their home when they aren't there, any more than a homeowner would? You can be annoyed as you like, but I suggest you not let your tenants know if you would like them to accomodate your needs as a landlord.

obachan · 18/04/2018 19:11

You don't need to be there and I would be mightily annoyed with a tenant being inflexible considering I use a vendor who has very limited availability because they are excellent.

Then you have to arrange the inspection date far in advance, to make sure you secure the vendor you prefer and complete the safety requirements in good time. You don't place responsibility on the client to accept visits at short notice or when they cannot be present.

The tenant is perfectly entitled to want to be present when you and/or any contractors are in the property. It doesn't matter if you believe they don't 'need' to be there.

This is exactly the kind of low-level pressure which frustrates tenants, where the landlord places their own convenience above the tenants' legitimate rights, and then tries to act like the tenant is being unreasonable. What would be unreasonable tenant behaviour is being deliberately and continually obstructive; refusing to respond to your communications; saying they'll allow access then changing their minds (especially when you've paid contractors to attend); changing the locks and blocking all access.

Saying they want to be present for maintenance and checks doesn't come close. That's their right, even if it gives you a more restricted range of days on which to enter. You'd be ill-advised to express how 'mightily annoyed' this makes you, too, since that could potentially be construed as harassment.

PigletJohn · 18/04/2018 19:22

I've never had a fire inspection. Where do you live where these are obligatory?

MovingAgainOhWhy · 18/04/2018 20:40

I've never had this kind of inspection in any of the properties I have rented over the years in Scotland and England, is this a really recent law/requirement?

Btw LL definitely doesn't have rights to enter your property without your permission as PP have said

Want2bSupermum · 18/04/2018 22:31

piglet High occupancy units and certain buildings require it for insurance purposes. It's a good piece of legislation which makes a lot of sense.

obachan I book a year in advance. I'm very upfront with tenants that once booked it's close to impossible to rebook so if they can't be there I will attend myself so the inspector isn't there on their own. I can't do more than that and while it's inconvenient for tenants it's for their benefit.

It's also not about me as a LL being difficult. The legislation is what it is. If I don't comply as a LL it's me who has a problem not the tenant. If that results in an annoyed tenant I'm fine with that. I'm more concerned about being legally compliant. I've also had no issues with tenants being awkward about me coming in to keep a place compliant. Yes it's annoying which is why I offer to be there so my tenants don't have to take time off work.

Slievenamon · 18/04/2018 22:50

m very upfront with tenants that once booked it's close to impossible to rebook so if they can't be there I will attend myself so the inspector isn't there on their own. I can't do more than that and while it's inconvenient for tenants it's for their benefit

I hope you, and they, are aware that you have no right to do this and if they refuse (which they should) you can't do anything about it?
The legislation changes that not one bit.

Want2bSupermum · 18/04/2018 22:55

You can sit there and be all uppity as a tenant but if I as a LL don't comply with the laws as a LL I'm the one who suffers and has the legal fallout if something goes wrong. For this reason I wouldn't renew a lease with a tenant who gave me a hard time over something like this. It's a requirement. The LL is required to comply and the tenant doesn't have to be there if the LL is willing to be.

If the appointment can't be changed it can't be changed. The inspection must take place. The LL is willing to attend so I don't see what the problem is.

Slievenamon · 18/04/2018 22:57

Uppity? For expecting you not the break the law?

If the appointment can't be changed it can't be changed. The inspection must take place. The LL is willing to attend so I don't see what the problem is

Clearly you don't see what the problem is. Its YOU. You are the type of landlord that everyone hates.

Jon66 · 18/04/2018 23:01

I don't see what the problem is. Just let them do their inspection. Do you think the ll is going to steal something?

Slievenamon · 18/04/2018 23:03

I don't see what the problem is. Just let them do their inspection. Do you think the ll is going to steal something?

Would you let anyone into your home without you being there, and bringing in total strangers?
LL or their associate might steal, or nose, or do nothing. Or they might be like a LL of mine once who was caught going through tenants knickers drawers and worse It doesn't matter. They don't have any rights to enter the property and OP doesn't want them to, so should say NO.

Want2bSupermum · 18/04/2018 23:05

Hmmm yes which is why I have minimal turnover of tenants and people contact me asking me to house them.

I follow the required legislature and meet or exceed those requirements. I'm proactive with maintenance so my tenants aren't inconvenienced more than necessary. The reality is that sometimes if you want a good person to do the work they are busy and only available at certain times during regular business hours when tenants are at work.

How would you like to live in a home that was in violation of legislation because that is the alternative?

Want2bSupermum · 18/04/2018 23:09

Also a LL going through an underwear drawer of a tenant is police matter. I'm very upfront with my tenants that when doing these inspections I'm there to let them in and watch them do the work. I text when entering, if anything is moved and when locking up. If you have a problem with LLs following the law you should speak to your Mp and see what they can do about loosening the laws for LLs not having to follow the laws in place to protect tenants if tentants deny access.

Jon66 · 18/04/2018 23:10

Want2bSupermum totally agree. Some of the posters on here don't seem to recognise a decent ll. I too am proactive on maintenance and none of my tenants have a problem with me entering the property to carry out safety checks and maintenance with contractors when they are not there. Can't see what the problem is.

Slievenamon · 18/04/2018 23:19

How would you like to live in a home that was in violation of legislation because that is the alternative?

yours is. You're violating legislation. You are not allowed to enter the property without the express permission of the tenants. The fact that you bully and lie to tenants who are often don't know or are too afraid to assert their rights only makes it worse.

Want2bSupermum · 19/04/2018 00:05

You have no idea. It's not violating legislation to enter with notice to perform required maintenance mandatory by law. The fire inspection is a matter of law and getting this completed with no lapse trumps the tenants rights to not allow the LL to enter.

You might not like it but as a LL I'd prefer to deal with a tenant complaining than a tenant who has died and I'm getting prosecuted for manslaughter due to negligence.

Slievenamon · 19/04/2018 00:15

Yes, it is. You are not allowed to enter without permission. You are, one hopes, going to get into lots of trouble very soon.

Want2bSupermum · 19/04/2018 00:20

Here are the basic rules.

When inspected I get sign off that all regulations are being followed. That includes fire escapes being in good working order, sprinkler systems (in the properties where these are installed) are tested and all escape routes are tested to ensure they function as intended. The regulations vary depending on the type of property and consideration is given to the occupants.

As an example, I have window guards installed in upper floor windows so young children can't fall out. It's a H&S review which determines this to be necessary and also the features of the window guards used (i.e. That they are a certain height etc).

Want2bSupermum · 19/04/2018 00:26

You don't need permission for this. As a LL you need to give 24hrs notice. It even says it in the government paperwork LLs are required to give tenants. Your LL not give you a copy?

safariboot · 19/04/2018 00:34

It's not violating legislation to enter with notice to perform required maintenance mandatory by law. The fire inspection is a matter of law and getting this completed with no lapse trumps the tenants rights to not allow the LL to enter.

I hope you have statute or case law to back this up. I'd be surprised if you do, and I'd be surprised if there's any good reason you can't schedule and reschedule the inspections to a time your tenant agrees to. If you're preferred contractor isn't available, use a different contractor.

Want2bSupermum · 19/04/2018 00:38

piglet The rules for HMOs require these inspections. This provides a good overview of the legislation.

I've never met a council who doesn't take this seriously. It's also why it's hard to reschedule. Paperwork has to be filed with the council and they do spot checks. Everything has to be signed off before expiration of the current certificate.

safariboot · 19/04/2018 00:44

I acknowledge HMOs have different regulations. For a start the landlord is free to enter the shared areas, agreeing access applies only to the individual tenants' rooms. The OP though is in a self contained flat.

Want2bSupermum · 19/04/2018 01:48

Self contained flat could still be a HMO. It depends on how the conversion was managed. Certain self contained flats are subject to HMO rules.

Even with a HMO you need to go beyond the shared areas to pass the inspection. Fire extinguishers must be tested as do the alarms in the private areas. If you have a sprinkler system that has to be tested in the common and private areas. The fire, emergency lighting and Co alarms and the electrical circuits hosting these alarms are also subject to inspection.

It's not something that is straight forward and finding someone licensed isn't always so easy. Having homes in more rural areas is an issue because coming to you will probably take them a whole day and they might not have a whole day available based on other customers. For one property I have a choice of three companies who can do the inspection. Two of those companies are licensed but not familiar with sprinkler systems. The third company does the vast majority of inspections of buildings with sprinkler systems and a fourth company does the others but won't service my area.

zsazsajuju · 19/04/2018 07:37

A landlord generally has the right to enter a property with reasonable notice to carry out repairs or assess any that are required. If it says that in your contract too, you would be in breach by not letting them in. I am not sure of your objections if you’re not there anyway. The stuff up thread re kidnapping your first born is bonkers. The law and most leases allow them to enter with notice.

PigletJohn · 19/04/2018 07:52

no, they require the landlord to give notice. They do not require the tenant to permit anyone to march into their home without consent.

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