Does this cost for an extension sound reasonable to you??

[shovetheholly]

I am very inexperienced at building work! I have first estimate of builders' costs for a modernist single-storey extension (with upper floor bay addition).

Please can you help me with 3 questions:

1. What does '2nd fix' mean in the phrase 'Finished internally to plastering with electrics/plumbing & joinery 2nd fix'. Does that mean this quote doesn't include electrics, plumbing or joinery?

1. Is the cost reasonable? Area is 3 metres high, 6 metres wide, 4 metres deep and house is in Yorkshire. There will be a large expanse of glass along the new back of the building, and a long skylight, which will add to the cost. Construction is going to be timber-framed. Quote covers: foundations, walls with painted brickwork, cedar cladding; aluminium windows & bay (to existing upper floor window to extend this out); green Roof on a GRP Flat roof system; split level internal with a knock through to external wall; finishing internally to plastering with electrics/plumbing & joinery 2nd fix (whatever that means)

= £37k.

1. If plumbing and electrics aren't included, how much extra will they and decorating be? The area will be a kitchen - from Ikea, so I guess I need to budget that in as well??

I interpret first fix electrics and plumbing to be getting the wires and pipes installed, second fix to be connecting them to sockets and sinks/drains. I'd guess from the description that this will give you plastered walls and sockets etc, but flooring, decorating and kitchen cabinets etc would need to budgeted for separately - both materials and installation if you are not doing it yourself. Other folk on here tend to estimate 1000-1500 per square metre, but it could vary massively depending on complexity of design (and area of the country).

I work for a builder. Has the builder given you a detailed breakdown? I would ask for this before going ahead. That way you can see if you can save on anything

2nd fix is all the work after the plastering. Sounds like yours includes electrics and plumbing. £37k sounds ok, remember the groundworks are expensive as are aluminium windows - you are having alot of high spec stuff.

I'd be surprised if painting wasn't included as it usually is. It would be detailed on the quote. Down south it's usually £140/day.

yes you will need to budget the kitchen and appliances in.

Don't forget to add VAT at 20%.

"Don't forget to add VAT at 20%."

OMG that hadn't even occurred to me

I am at my total lack of experience with this. And, if I'm honest, completely terrified.

Now I'm over that shock, I can remember my manners: thank you both SO much for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate it.

This is just an initial costing. I am not sure whether to go to tender with other builders. Because the construction is slightly unusual, this guy is recommended.

Having recently been through this, I agree it is a steep learning curve but great advice on here. The VAT is a bit of a shock so you need to know if that is included in quotes.

I would definitely ask for other quotes as builders do vary. Also with a detailed breakdown from each you can see what is included and what the costs are for materials and labour. You will also need to budget for kitchen fitting, tiling and floor laying . The big material costs sound like the Windows, roof and any structural work including steel supports if knocking through. Also allow a contingency fund for anything unexpected.

Good luck it will be worth it in the end

Definitely get more quotes! Most clients get 2 or 3. And yes to contingency. Shame you're up north as this is exactly the type of project we do!

A word of warning about ikea kitchens. They are an absolute pig to put in as None of the measurements are standard. Do you have howdens where you are or similar - they are trade only so your builder can get you a discount.

Why are ikea kitchens a pig? Ours was installed with only a small tweak of pipes to run under not behind.

Just speaking from experience. Glad yours went in ok though

The kitchen is going into an entirely new space - one that doesn't even exist yet - so I'm hoping that there aren't some of the issues with moving pipes etc that you sometimes hear about with Ikea kitchens!

I think I'm at the moment where lovely architect drawings suddenly become a real life cost, and it's a bit eye-watering how expensive things are. I think the cost of the shell is reasonable given that it includes some high-end things like a 4x3 metre expanse of glass with folding doors and a very modern bay window. It's the fact I've suddenly realised that all the other things will be on top - and there are a lot of them (basket case house).

There's also an issue of extension value to house value. My house was bought for £165k in 2008 (the week before the Northern Rock crash, so at the top of the market!!) but the neighbourhood is kind of gentrifying a little bit at the moment - neighbours just sold their almost identical one for £195k. I'm not looking to make money on the extension - I wouldn't be doing things like a green roof if I was - but I don't want to lose a ton of cash here either. It needs to be possible to sell it for £240k if I'm going to spend £75k on this, basically. I think it will probably be valued around that, but there is an element of risk in there as we are not adding another bedroom. I'm not even considering moving, btw - this is a house we're planning to stay in for a while. I just don't want to make an expensive mistake.

If you're getting 24 square metres downstairs, plus some additional space by extending the bay upstairs, and the quote includes the bi-fold doors and the modern bay etc, I think £37k is cheap actually. We're in the NW, having a double storey extension (which tends to be cheaper than single storey) and we're paying in excess of £1500 per square metre plus VAT for the basic finish.

But if your neighbours sold an identical house for £195k, I don't think a 4m extension will add £45k to the overall value of your house, if you're not taking it into another bracket (i.e. 3 bed to 4 bed). Why does it need to be possible to sell for £240k if you're not planning on moving (and can afford the extension)?

That sounds not unrealistic to me.

Remember to factor in VAT, the kitchen and all appliances, tiling, flooring, light fittings, sink, taps, internal decorating, accessories and allow a 10% minimum contingency.

Friends recently had a large single level extension done a similar size to yours, with a kitchen, bifold doors, 3 velux skylight windows etc. It cost them about £55k all in (no upstairs work though).

It sounds pretty reasonable to me. Our 6x3m two story extension with hipped roof including kitchen installation, redecorating and turning the under stair space into a cloakroom with one RSJ but but no fancy glassworks was around £62k, also in Yorkshire.

namechanged - it has to put a similar amount of value on the house to what I am paying because I might well want to move in 10 years' time to a more expensive area of the country . I don't want to throw 40k down the drain, IYSWIM? Or am I thinking about this wrong?

All the fitting costs will be in addition to the £37k (£44,500 with VAT). So flooring, kitchen, utility room, underfloor heating, new boiler, terrace outside etc. all still to pay. It's going to cost £70-80k total I think.

I don't think the maths adds up on the cost of extension versus increase in value either.

If your quotes are looking like £70-£80k now and you realistically need at least a 10% contingency on top of that as things rarely go to plan, your looking at approx £90k.

Have you had an EA look at your plans and give an indication of value afterwards?

What can you buy for £240k possibly up to £255k in your area- is it comparable with what your property will be?

Increasing living space without increasing bedroom space isn't going to massively increase the value as it's still just an x bedroom house.

Also, if all the other houses in the street are the same ie around £195k you may well find prospective purchasers struggle to get a mortgage as surveyors tend not to like oddities ie, they'd stuggle to justify a much higher price on the same road with the same number of bedrooms as anything else.

Well alot can happen in 10 years.

But - it sounds as though you're going to far exceed the value of the road. I think you need to reign in the rest of the spending - there is no point in spending £40-%0k on those extras (not sure how you're getting to that figure) because it doesn't sound like you'll get it back.

Having said that, its going to be your home for the next 10 years and it may not be as much of an issue if you've paid down your mortgage / prices have risen.

But there was a house in the road next to ours which belonged to an architect - was absolutely stunning, architect had obviously spent alot of time and money on it. Downstairs space was amazing (Grand Designs type house with beautiful landscaped garden) but it was still a 3 bedroomed semi in a road of 3 bed semis. People weren't going to pay £100k more for a glass extension and a nice garden. It sold after about 6 months (a very long time here) after a couple of reductions.

I guess part of me is coming to terms with the fact that, because of DH's career, we will be here for another 10 years. Don't get me wrong, I do like the city a lot, but I'm not totally in love with it and definitely out of love with the weather. However, DH is absolutely committed at work for at least the next 5 years (he is a prof who is about to become Head of Dept) while I work from home, so I don't really have to be anywhere.

One of the problems is there isn't the variety of housing stock here that there is in many other cities. There is very little here that is modern. There are a LOT of three-bed semis that are pretty much identical over the city. The thing that seems to make a lot of difference is the postcode, not the internal space. I've been on Rightmove every week for a year, because our initial plan was to move house to get the space we want. I've been actively looking and going to see houses for what feels like years (actually 9 months) I find lots that I like that is way too expensive - £500-700k - but I just can't find anything sub £300k that I like. There are several problems with all of the houses I've seen:

• a lot of the taste decor-wise here is towards the very old-fashioned. I don't mean that they haven't been decorated for a while, I mean that they're newly decorated with fake antique furniture and pink curtains with drapey pelmets and scrolly light fittings
• More than anywhere else I've lived, people don't seem to invest in the basics, either - so most houses need a rewire/central heating done/replastering. For all of the properties I looked at recently, I'd have to do £20-30k of work pretty much straight away.
• A lot of the stuff that is between £240-300k is just my house in another area - and even though those areas are undoubtedly posher and 'nicer' on paper, I don't actually like them as much because they don't have the local bars and restaurants we have on the doorstep here.
• I also LOVE our neighbours and our garden.

Financing the extension is not an issue: we can cover the cost comfortably without borrowing. The question is really about whether it's sensible. I'm trying to keep my feet on the ground and to think of this as a financial decision as well as an emotional one. I hear those who say that the figures don't add up - this is my fear too.

namechanged - here's how I worked out the rest of the spend.

Replastering hall & new staircase 2500
Second fix plumbing & electrics 2000
Joinery (huge bookcase, doors, skirting) 2000
Kitchen/utility room from Ikea, inc appliances 10 000
Decoration 1000
New boiler 2000
Underfloor heating 2000
Flooring 2000
Terrace/bike store underneath house 3000

Those are just figures that felt sensible after some searching on the web/basic thoughts. I have no idea how realistic they are!

(Oh and I am going to get full costings done in the near future. But I feel like I need to get to grips with the financial side of things right now, because there's no point going ahead with loads more detailed drawings from the architects if the thing is far too much).

Your quote includes all plumbing and electrics to 2nd fix, so you don't need to budget for that again. That means it will be finished.

I would recommend asking the building company to add on all your extras to their quote. You will probably find that due to economies of scale it is far cheaper to bundle everything up together. Definitely the joinery, plastering, staircase and UF heating.

Get another couple of quotes. We have a variance of about £50k all in for our single storey extension. Madness.

With regards being sensible, if you are tied to this area for some time and won't be borrowing to finance the work then I say go ahead. Alternatively make your plans more generic, ie standard sky-light and bi-folds rather than bespoke sheets of glass. You can still get a unique finish by being selective with your fixtures and fitting.

Finally, consider DIY Kitchens rather than IKEA. We're just about to put it bespoke navy blue hand-painted cabinets and a long run and island has cost us £3.2k.

Agree with previous posters about spending too much if you intend to move. It doesn't make sense to put in posh windows and cedar cladding if it's not going add that much value to your house when you put it on the market.

My gut feeling is what some others have been saying, you're going to far exceed the value of the road. Could you look at a compromise, a less high spec extension that gets you space but leaves you money for new house in future maybe? It's a lot of work but shopping around for materials plus getting lots of quotes can really cut costs considerably. Loving garden and neighbour's does count for a lot.

We're waiting for planning permission on a two storey extension so I have the Haynes manual of extensions downstairs which I haven't got very far into but might be an idea so you understand the basics and have a better idea what's going on when dealing with builders.

One thing I'm a bit twitchy about is the whole Brexit thing. Probably quite irrationally but can't quite help feeling we might potentially be into uncharted waters and spending a lot on the house makes me nervous at the moment. Guess if you know you're staying for 10 years that is a long time.

Re other houses

I can see those figures make sense, but some of those costings are for things you wouldn't ordinarily expect to get back in any case - a new kitchen makes your house more saleable, a £10k kitchen (including the utility room) which is doesn't add value. Neither does a new boiler / electrics / replastering. Those are kind of maintenance issues that you have to incur whilst you live there.

I am also a firm believer in location location location and the "buy the worse house in the best street" advice. Call me shallow but if I were looking to spend £250k I'd probably want to spend it in the "naicer" /better postcode area where all the other houses were £250k and above - where I could perhaps add value myself, not in a not-so-nice area where I was probably paying over the odds and the house would not necessarily increase in value in the same way.

not worse, worst!!

Don't discount independent kitchen companies. We had one to do our previous kitchen in old house and they made the units in their factory to fit our kitchen. Obviously would cost more than it did in 2002 when it cost 3k for cupboards, worktop, sink, taps, cooker hood, tiles and including fitting, sorting electrics and tiling.

I've just found pictures of the house when it sold 18 months ago. Rest of house very different to how we had it , really done up and an utility room added but the kitchen is the same one we had fitted right back then and still looks decent.