Seller won't do a pre-exchange visit

[MidnightDexy]

I don't know what to do. Sorry this is long.

First viewed house in Sept (twice). First was a cursory run through and second viewing we spent a long time - 45 minutes - taking measurements and so on. Our offer was finally accepted mid-October after a bit of negotiation and a complicated back story (she originally went with another buyer but eventually ditched them because they couldn't get their finances in order and she feared "we'd still be here in March").

We were delighted, instructed solicitor immediately, got mortgage offer and instructed valuation and booked surveyor. Did everything super fast to prove we weren't time-wasters.

Then she stalled. Took weeks (6, I think) to instruct a solicitor. She obviously hadn't paid the money on account because it then took her solicitor ages to finally get in touch with our solicitor.

The Property Information Form came back with lots of incomplete or missing answers, and lots of documentation "to follow". Our solicitor is excellent and has replied to emails same day or next, constantly kept pushing the outstanding enquiries and outstanding documents. Her solicitor has been appalling but we thought we were slowly getting there. The list of incomplete information is dwindling and we're now down to just 4/5 points.

One outstanding question is "can you confirm the property is in the same condition as when the buyers viewed it in September". The other is what arrangements her solicitors will make to deal with the shortfall in the amount needed to redeem mortgage charge on completion (sale proceeds will leave a shortfall). I didn't think there was anything odd about the first question, and the second (I am told) is essential.

We asked to have a final, pre-exchange visit (in particular to take a look at the drains at the rear, as we plan to do an extension). Estate Agent called with "bad news". Apparently the seller won't let us visit again, and won't talk on the phone. She's "offended" and "angry" at the questions we are asking.

Estate Agent told her she'd got the wrong end of the stick and that there was nothing personal behind the questions, they're just standard questions solicitors have to ask, but she's now got the hump in a serious way.

EA tells us she asked seller if she is trying to pull out, or no longer wants to sell to us, but seller (allegedly) promised that's not the case, she is just sick of us "hounding" her.

Has anyone had this? Any advice on how to handle this? I am heartbroken because if this house doesn't go through we'll be lumped with the new additional 3% SDLT and have to face the fact that the market has moved since our offer was accepted.

Firstly, I would drop or at least hide the anger!

Secondly, the neighbours have already done what you want to do. Have you tried looking on the council's planning website or speaking to the officers there for guidance? Was the neighbour's extension done recently?

Thirdly, by asking about the garden I would think you are asking about the land behind the house - ask specifically about the side return.

This is probably the most expensive purchase you will make in your life. I would always want to check the property prior to exchange. We did this and discovered the neighbours scaffolding taking up a huge portion of the garden due to building work! This had NOT been mentioned and had developed since our original offer on the house. This therefore delayed the purchase as we wanted an agreement of a date when it would be removed. I would want to know EXACTLY what my money was buying. You can't resolve these issues after exchange. I am 100% behind you wanting to view again before exchange for whatever possible reason.

My in-laws did a rear extension and had a similar public drain, manhole issue. It took them months and months to get sign off from Thames Water and then it added quite a few thousand to divert the sewer.

However we have a manhole cover in our study which was originally going to be a garage and this was no problem as the way the drain ran was not interfered by the foundations and we have a second manhole cover in the front garden. The manhole in the study is solely to our water supply and not a shared sewer either. It was however a requirement by Thames Water not to concrete it over so we have carpet should we need to pull it up but never have had the need.

If you cannot confirm the status of the drain and building an extension is a deal breaker for you, you have to pull out. Worst case scenario is that the drain is public and for whatever reason you cannot build over/divert and therefore cannot extend. Only you know if you could live with that risk.
I would definitely insist on the pre exchange visit. She is being unreasonable and what is she trying to hide? Could you bear it if she would only allow an outside visit? then you could sneak a peak through the windows.

I have managed to speak to some neighbours and one even let me look in her garden to see what she had, but TW have already warned me that they know very little about victorian houses' plumbing and drainage unless and until they get called out to investigate (at which point they update their records). They said not to assume they all run in a straight line and that what is possible in one garden may not be possible in another... I am at my wits end. All i want to do is take a look / get an expert to take a look (at my own expense).

I will tone down the anger when i speak to EA, of course. Just venting here, sorry. I'm always friendly and firm with the EA because she acts for the seller, not me, and i always assume (cynically) that i can't trust her, so i never say anything i wouldn't want her to repeat to seller.

Sorry, but given the fact that you have been honest about the extension from the start, it really sounds dodgy on her part and I would be looking elsewhere for a property. She has delayed the purchase and been evasive from the outset. If she had been serious about moving out by, March was it?, then she would have instructed her solicitor sooner and would have answered the questions speedily. It feels 'off' to me.

We had exactly as you describe with a manhole in a Victorian side return. It only cost £2k to move it into the alleyway. (South East) - it was by far the cheapest part of the extension and caused no issues at all.

The other houses with side returns all along the street will likely have done this too. You could go and talk to them.

I highly doubt she's been deliberately obtuse. But I also think she's been (understandably) unhelpful because she can't say 'ffs, everyone along the street has found a way round this. Why don't you' - cause it makes her look like a tool

I would have told you outright at the beginning that it was there and everyone else had them and managed to build.

I think what's happened is it went weeks and weeks and she now doesn't want to answer in case it puts you off.

When are you viewing the other property OP?

I'd be hoping it was at least as good an option as this one and I'd pull out of the current sale.

If the manhole cover is obvious enough that you've inadevertently captured it on a blurry photo then the vendor is up to no goodi if she says she's never seen one.

Other house aside-The fact she'll let you visit after exchange rings enormous alarm bells.

If you can't get in before exchange then tell her you're pulling out. If she then cooperates thats fine, if not then I'd be pretty sure you've dodged a bullet.

We actually saw other house yest. Very nice, and cheaper, but considerably smaller (no loft conversion) and layout was poor in comparison. Not insurmountable things given this is going to be a ten year house for us, but we are young with no savings (after house hopefully goes thru) so it needs to bw liveable for at least 3 years until we can get our funds back together and hopefully extend.

Laurie comment above about moving the drain is helpful - was yours public or private?

It had one other house feed into it, so public. Also a Victorian semi, but it wasn't the house we were adjoined to, it was the one we were next to (only a 3 ft alleyway divided us).

The builder moved it into the alleyway, which was just further along the pipe. It was honestly dead easy. He informed the water company who visited. As did the council as part of the planning process.

thanks - very helpful. the thing is, is it (a manhole) not where it is so that when you open it you can see and access all / any connections, and not just a straight bit of pipe? I kind of assumed if you move the manhole it also means moving re-routing the whole drainage system.

Apologies in advance if that does not make sense!

Ok, first photo. The manhole had our soil pipe and next doors waste travelling to it.

The second picture. Builder digs up 4 feet of pipe and installs second manhole in alleyway .

What I haven't shown on it is that all the waste was going down the alleyway anyway, it's just the access was further over on to my property.

It was very simple to move it 4 feet as it wasn't being diverted far off its course.

Hope that makes sense.

I don't think you should write either. This vendor does sound a bit of a pain. But if it was me I'd be thinking you've had since the middle of October to examine the drains why have you left it until the end of January. But I think she is being unreasonable not to allow you another visit. Hope it gets sorted out.

Thanks laurie I don't think we have any drainage going up the alley (not so far as the patchy map says anyway). Will try and get my head around it.

Vivienne its a very long saga but I can assure you we've not been sitting on this issue since October - seller pissed around for weeks, meaning we only got water search back in December and our solicitor has been raising enquiries since the day we got it. It's her delay, not ours.

Just read the whole thread, and am now emotionally invested! I don't think you're being unreasonable at all.

Please come back and update?!

Aw puffy! That's sweet.

Ultimately i have little to update you on. Her solicitor still hasn't sent any more replies to enquiries (despite seller squawking about exchanging this friday...).

We saw our own solicitor this morning to sign paperwork so it's all ready when we come to exchange. This was pre-planned but it was well timed as i was able to give the Estate Agent an update and say we had signed and were anxious to go, which is true.

Explained latest developments to solicitor when we saw her this morning - she thinks it's one of those proceed with caution type situations, but not alarmed.

She endorsed our plan of saying to EA, look, we know there's a manhole cover, may we please inspect drain (at own expense) and, also, we want a quick look around prior to exchange.

Everyone (me included) seems to have calmed down a bit and we are back to normality, i.e. solicitors sorting through final outstanding enquiries.

I will keep you posted :)

I genuinely am sorry for bumping my own thread again but Puffy I have a small update.

Turns out the proceeds of sale ARE enough to discharge the mortgage, her solicitor confirmed today! What a volt face (sp?) I am gobsmacked that she has stalled on this since beginning December. What can possibly have changed?!

A couple of minor outstanding enquiries (that we weren't even really pursuing anymore) also came back, voluntarily.

We have raised the drain survey and pre-exchange visit with the Estate Agent, who said she'd discussing with seller tonight.

Keep your fingers crossed for us!

Good luck.

Midnight Dexy - I bet she answered the question about proceeds of sale and outstanding mortgage on the Property Information Form wrongly. We have many clients who do exactly this and it takes forever for the solicitor to be able to confirm that the answer was provided in error! Unfortunately, when clients fill in this form and returns it to his solicitor, it is not checked by them. It is photocopied and posted to the buyer's solicitor, who then raises enquiries and sometimes it is missed in the initial pre-contract enquiries.

Hi Spickle - our solicitor originally thought that too (like you, she finds it happens often) but she wrote to seller's solicitor to ask her to confirm, and answer was given (again in December) that the question had been answered correctly! So ever since our solicitor has been writing and writing, asking what arrangements they are making for completion, and has been getting no response.

I cannot think what has caused the about turn. I suppose it doesn't matter (it's certainly none of our business) but it is disconcerting, in a way.

Maybe someone has lent her some money to eliminate the negative equity issue. Never mind one more issue dealt with!

indeed! :)

She could have a three month interest account waiting to withdraw funds?

Hope it goes well

Well that's good news! The drains will just add on some costs, worst case scenario, but not being able to discharge the mortgage would have scuppered the whole sale. So good news!