Seller won't do a pre-exchange visit

[MidnightDexy]

I don't know what to do. Sorry this is long.

First viewed house in Sept (twice). First was a cursory run through and second viewing we spent a long time - 45 minutes - taking measurements and so on. Our offer was finally accepted mid-October after a bit of negotiation and a complicated back story (she originally went with another buyer but eventually ditched them because they couldn't get their finances in order and she feared "we'd still be here in March").

We were delighted, instructed solicitor immediately, got mortgage offer and instructed valuation and booked surveyor. Did everything super fast to prove we weren't time-wasters.

Then she stalled. Took weeks (6, I think) to instruct a solicitor. She obviously hadn't paid the money on account because it then took her solicitor ages to finally get in touch with our solicitor.

The Property Information Form came back with lots of incomplete or missing answers, and lots of documentation "to follow". Our solicitor is excellent and has replied to emails same day or next, constantly kept pushing the outstanding enquiries and outstanding documents. Her solicitor has been appalling but we thought we were slowly getting there. The list of incomplete information is dwindling and we're now down to just 4/5 points.

One outstanding question is "can you confirm the property is in the same condition as when the buyers viewed it in September". The other is what arrangements her solicitors will make to deal with the shortfall in the amount needed to redeem mortgage charge on completion (sale proceeds will leave a shortfall). I didn't think there was anything odd about the first question, and the second (I am told) is essential.

We asked to have a final, pre-exchange visit (in particular to take a look at the drains at the rear, as we plan to do an extension). Estate Agent called with "bad news". Apparently the seller won't let us visit again, and won't talk on the phone. She's "offended" and "angry" at the questions we are asking.

Estate Agent told her she'd got the wrong end of the stick and that there was nothing personal behind the questions, they're just standard questions solicitors have to ask, but she's now got the hump in a serious way.

EA tells us she asked seller if she is trying to pull out, or no longer wants to sell to us, but seller (allegedly) promised that's not the case, she is just sick of us "hounding" her.

Has anyone had this? Any advice on how to handle this? I am heartbroken because if this house doesn't go through we'll be lumped with the new additional 3% SDLT and have to face the fact that the market has moved since our offer was accepted.

Hmm. I'm not sure why you're so angry, I'm not trying to be obtuse. When you're involved in this sort of thing, 'all human life is here' and you pretty much have to accept that different people do things differently to you.

I'm not sure why she would try to hide the manhole cover. The house has, presumably, stood for years, and the drains too no doubt.

The solution re your extension is in your hands: if you are worried you must delay exchange and ask the appropriate expert/s in to ascertain if you can do what you want re the extension. You may end up having to re route the drains, you may not, but that surely must have been in your mind anyway?

Must admit she is probably just terrified of you pulling out - which in fairness you might over 'manhole cover' ...the big question is do you want the house and to exchange quickly if not say you need a visit pre exchange if she says no pull out. You will lose a house you like but by the sound of her financial situation she really will be up sh1t creek

I'd be insisting on a final pre-exchange visit (though maybe give her another day or two to calm down). I'd attend with whatever specialist (builder?) can give you an answer about whether the presence of the manhole cover is going to scupper your extension plans.

(Or - just a thought, ignore me if this would constitute trespass wouldn't work - if the manhole cover is in a side return or visible from the road, could a builder have a look from the road or from the NDN's house?)

I'm confused now...you have photos of it and have seen it on a viewing? Then surely you know you wouldn't be able to extend?
She definitely doesn't want you to pull out that's why she's doing it!

I'm not sure I've got my head round what is what in English terms - is exchange when you finally move in?

Here in Scotland as soon as we were under offer (ie we'd accepted the offer but all the other bits and pieces were still being negotiated so we hadn't concluded missives) my solicitor ordered me not to let the buyer in if they asked for another viewing. He said they could come round as much as we/they wanted before they put the offer in, they could have the standard 2 visits after we'd concluded missives and more if we felt like being nice and they wanted them, but they couldn't set foot in the door during the negotiation period. He says its now standard practice to try and prevent sharp practice with buyers reducing the price further and further for all sorts of minor defects once they think you're hooked. (That doesn't mean surveyors of course until you've agreed the survey clause in the missives).

In reality, our buyers had 2 viewings before they offered and didn't appear again until moving day. WE viewed our new flat once before we offered and visited once after we'd concluded missives (though I did drive by the outside A LOT in between)

Hi

Both visits were in September and this was before our offer had been accepted and before solicitors had been instructed, and hence before any searches had been carried out.

I have to admit we didn't look for manhole covers when we visited in September.

As soon as her solicitor returned the Property Information Form (which asks all the questions about drainage) our solicitor replied and said "you haven't answered X, Y or Z re. the drains and how they are accessed"). This was in September. She has refused to answer these questions, repeatedly. She confirmed she had never seen a manhole cover in her back garden. We therefore said to the EA we wanted a final visit so we could look for ourselves - if she can't or won't tell us then we will look ourselves.

I agree Peppermint Pasty - what we have to do next is get a drain man round to ascertain whether it's public / private (by doing the inspection from the manhole in her garden). The solution is in our hands. But she's refused any further access before exchange.

The manhole cover is not visible from the road and can only be accessed from a locked side gate. It would be visible from a NDN's garden, if you peered over the fence but a) we've been ringing the doorbell of NDN and they are always out - house may be vacant?) and b) a look wouldn't do that much good, the drain man will need to do the CCTV survey before he can advise us on whether our extension plans are possible.

If we pull out because of this she'll only have herself to blame because this could all have been ascertained in December (or in October, if she'd not waited 6 weeks to instruct a solicitor after accepting our offer... we instructed a solicitor within 24 hours of her accepting our offer).

i am going to insist on the pre-exchange visit and drain inspection. I'll show EA the photo and say "good news, i know seller wasn't sure whether there was a manhole cover but it seems there is and so now we need to get Dynorod round - we'll pay of course".

sorry, typo above: her solicitor returned the Property Info Form in December, not September.

Merlina from what you've described above exchange would be the 'offer accepted' stage in Scotland. At exchange you pay the 10% deposit to the seller's solicitors and you are both locked into the transaction - broadly speaking no one can back out, for any reason (maybe apart from fraud). On exchange the house is the responsibility of the buyer, hence your lender make you take out buildings insurance when you exchange, even though you're not the owner. Completion is when the banks lift/register mortgages as appropriate and release the funds. On Completion you get the keys to the house.

JellyBaby no, we did not see it on the viewing, which is why we have been asking for about 8 weeks whether there was a manhole or not, and we did (it transpires) have a photo of it but this was in the trash can / deleted items on a laptop, i only discovered it last night.

Fizrim sorry just saw your message to: it has a garden and a side return yard. We want to extend into the side return and she's always known that - we discussed it on the first visit and she showed us the neighbours who have done it.

Your searches should have highlighted whether it was a public sewer- haven't you received them back yet?

With regards to the drains, the Water Act 2010 returned the responsibility for all shared drains to the water companies. So it will only be yours to do with as you please for the portion that only feeds your house. So, if the manhole has any sewerage from any other property feeding into it - it will be a public sewer

It is possible to get a build-over agreement from the water company, which means that your foundations will be designed not to damage the pipes. Generally, you will not be permitted to build over the manhole which means you will need to divert the sewer if it falls in the footprint of the proposed extension.

And for all those who say the searches should reveal this - the return of responsibility was in late 2011, and sometimes the records have not been updated yet. But the law is clear, if the pipe or manhole has poo from more than one house in it - it is a public sewer

I've never heard of anyone doing a pre-exchange visit. Sorry but I wouldn't want people tramping through my house everytime they wanted something clarified. I would think you were being extremely invasive.

In Scotland we don't have to register any deposit to the sellers solicitor to be locked in. Once you have signed the missives that's it your locked in and everything is legally binding without money changing hands.

peggy signing the missives is equivalent to exchange. If you hadn't seen inside a property for months and the seller was being evasive about key points, wouldn't you want to see it again? Before being locked into spending hundreds of thousands of pounds? I know I would. And I wouldn't care about being invasive when my financial future is at stake.

Yes socks but the water company should be able to advise regardless. All we did recently was lift the manhole and ask next door to flush their loo. Turns out we weren't connected, unlike the plans suggested (private surveyor working for the board) had drafted it wrongly post 2011

Perhaps she has planned a rear extension in the past and knows the answer!

Without accurate plans, which many houses don't have, they would probably just advise that you get them checked by a surveyor, which is what the OP wants to do. An Asset Location Search is often not conclusive, and requires further investigation.

Socks no I wouldn't want to visit again, never ever heard of anyone doing it here. My friend of 30yrs who is a solicitor and acted for us every time we have moved house has never mentioned anything like this either.

But then you might be tied into purchasing a property that had been damaged? OP said she last viewed in September, a lot can happen in that time period.

Well, lots of buyers do visit again pre-exchange, in my experience. About 10-20% of buyers. But these are very low key, 'measuring up' visits. I've never had an issue come up with these visits, whether acting for buyer or seller.

Midnight, if your heart is set on this house, you will have to get the experts in pre-exchange, so steel yourself for more delay (I mean in the process, not necessarily from seller).

Hey Socks is correct - we did the asset search and the plans came back saying 'unidentified'. The plans are even more unhelpful in that the two houses next door don't have ANY records at all - so you can't even make an educated guess.

We've called Thames Water three times and the answer is always the same - we don't know, we can't tell you and we are not interested unless and until you have a blockage. When you do call us and we will do the inspection and tell you if it's public private.

We can't claim there is a blockage to lure them out...it's not our house!

Whoever mentioned she might have planned an extension in the past and been stumped by this - yes that's exactly my fear.

I don't think my solicitors questions are invasive but if they are i don't care. She's being evasive.

Ah, good old Thames Water. I have had numerous professional dealings with them, and they can be very evasive/arse covering.