Seller won't do a pre-exchange visit

[MidnightDexy]

I don't know what to do. Sorry this is long.

First viewed house in Sept (twice). First was a cursory run through and second viewing we spent a long time - 45 minutes - taking measurements and so on. Our offer was finally accepted mid-October after a bit of negotiation and a complicated back story (she originally went with another buyer but eventually ditched them because they couldn't get their finances in order and she feared "we'd still be here in March").

We were delighted, instructed solicitor immediately, got mortgage offer and instructed valuation and booked surveyor. Did everything super fast to prove we weren't time-wasters.

Then she stalled. Took weeks (6, I think) to instruct a solicitor. She obviously hadn't paid the money on account because it then took her solicitor ages to finally get in touch with our solicitor.

The Property Information Form came back with lots of incomplete or missing answers, and lots of documentation "to follow". Our solicitor is excellent and has replied to emails same day or next, constantly kept pushing the outstanding enquiries and outstanding documents. Her solicitor has been appalling but we thought we were slowly getting there. The list of incomplete information is dwindling and we're now down to just 4/5 points.

One outstanding question is "can you confirm the property is in the same condition as when the buyers viewed it in September". The other is what arrangements her solicitors will make to deal with the shortfall in the amount needed to redeem mortgage charge on completion (sale proceeds will leave a shortfall). I didn't think there was anything odd about the first question, and the second (I am told) is essential.

We asked to have a final, pre-exchange visit (in particular to take a look at the drains at the rear, as we plan to do an extension). Estate Agent called with "bad news". Apparently the seller won't let us visit again, and won't talk on the phone. She's "offended" and "angry" at the questions we are asking.

Estate Agent told her she'd got the wrong end of the stick and that there was nothing personal behind the questions, they're just standard questions solicitors have to ask, but she's now got the hump in a serious way.

EA tells us she asked seller if she is trying to pull out, or no longer wants to sell to us, but seller (allegedly) promised that's not the case, she is just sick of us "hounding" her.

Has anyone had this? Any advice on how to handle this? I am heartbroken because if this house doesn't go through we'll be lumped with the new additional 3% SDLT and have to face the fact that the market has moved since our offer was accepted.

Hope it all works out for you. We still have the recent memories of working with a problematic seller so I feel your pain.

We had a 3rd visit from our buyers which took well over an hour. They discussed in great detail the changes they were going to make - plus kept using the term "so much potential". It was only the thought we were moving somewhere better that stopped me throwing them out. Potential? Fuck off. This is where I live NOW.

But again. I feel for you. I would put out feelers for plan B.

You are going to see another house on the same street and it's only been on the market for one day? That does not indicate a heavy heart to your current vendor, I've gotta say!

As there has been a few months gap since you last saw the house, I think another quick visit would be in order but if you spent 45 mins there last time I can also see that the vendor might not be looking forward to the prospect. Has the idea of the extension come up since the long visit, because I (and probably the vendor as well) are wondering why you didn't check then. If it is close to the sale, they may be packing!

As for the shortfall, they will need to arrange to cover that before the mortgage lender agrees to the sale. If there is an issue over finances, that could be a delay but if you think you are close to exchange now then that may well have been sorted.

Cross posted with you OP, but I don't think exchange will go ahead unless the shortfall is covered as the (current) mortage lender on the property won't agree to the sale. So if exchange is near, this has probably been sorted.

This
The seller needs careful handling, that's clear, and not everyone understands the complexities of the property buying/selling process

I wouldn't automatically assume she's stalling, or got nothing to hide. Many people move house very, very rarely. I could be 40 years since she last moved house. It could be someone else did all the paperwork last time round. It could be she lacks confidence or is a very anxious person. Not everybody is on the ball. It's the estate agents that should be helping her and explaining things to her - that's what gives a good estate agent their reputation - the ability to ease the sale through. Anyone could stick some pictures of a house on a website, but EAs charge a lot more than would be needed for that because they do this job of making the sale get to a conclusion.

I haven't read the full thread but all I can say is that buying and selling property brings out the very worst in people in my experience.
Our seller behaved most bizarrely just before exchange, obstructive, rude, almost pathologically so. She became really unpleasant, I suspect she didn't actually want to move but had to for family reasons and it slightly tainted my view of the house for a while. As it is, we've done lots of work on it and it feels like ours now.
Good luck, hope it all comes together for you. As someone else said, say you'll pull out if you can't visit again - that will test her commitment. If she lost your purchase that would put her months down the line for another sale.

I completely hear you Fizrim - this has been a tough judgement call for us and perhaps we've played our cards badly. The seller has been acting up for a while (i.e. not answering simple questions, like "you have not indicated if you are taking or leaving the dishwasher, please confirm"). We woke up yesterday, saw the 'new' house for sale, and thought about viewing it. We decided against it because we didn't want to rock the boat. However when I got to work and found out she was now having a meltdown and refusing a further visit we decided we should go for it.

It might alienate her or it might show her that if she starts dicking around she could lose her buyer to a rival seller. Who knows. It's all a poker game.

I did not ask EA not to tell seller we were viewing this house (I would never do that, it just looks shady and puts EA in an uncomfortable situation) and I fully assumed she'd be right on the phone to the seller with the 'goss' but actually - of her own volition - EA has emailed me today and said "you're booked in to view house X, just to let you know the seller is unaware".

Crikey. Ok, hear this and put your mind at rest re any possible shortfall. Her solicitor MUST file written confirmation (a legal undertaking I mentioned previously) prior to completion, that the current mortgage, her mortgage, will be discharged by the solicitor on her behalf on the day of completion.

If the solicitor breaches that undertaking, he or she will be in very very serious professional trouble. Do not worry about the possible shortfall, it is for your solicitor to satisfy themselves that her solicitor has sorted it.

I think there is some overthinking going on here, which I understand and sympathise with.

It is not unreasonable, in my view, to request a pre exchange visit in the circumstances you have described.

The solicitors should sort this in my view. In my experience, sometimes estate agents become too involved and they overstep the line and can stray into legal areas they don't know enough about. (In the main my experience with EAs is positive, but...).

As for flowers and/or a note, I would not recommend doing either of these. If I were a seller I would think this was a bit odd, and intrusive, but there we are.

Can I (not at all huffily...) also add that solicitors do give a damn (a couple of posters mentioning it as just another business transaction). Also, I certainly do not get paid in any event if the matter goes down the pan. Often we agree no sale no fee just the same as EAs. Failing that we have a sliding scale of charges and I never ever charge the full amount of time spent when a matter goes abortive as clients will simply not wear it. I will charge where a matter has gone on for a long time and I have spent a good few hours on it, but if you want the return business you have to be careful what you charge.

I think you absolutely MUST allow your solicitor to deal with this. Assuming the other solicitor is experienced in conveyancing, he or she will realise that inaction on their part or utter daftness on the part of their client might cause the sale to fall apart.

As for the drains, your solicitor should investigate whether there are any buildings over the services, or within 3m. And you yourselves, if you are planning to build in these positions will need something called a buildover agreement from the Local Authority. Your solicitor can advise you about this.

I think the problem is that although house transactions are a business transaction, they also relate to a very personal and emotional place - home.

Thank you. I'm a solicitor too (although not, obviously, in real estate) so apologies for the "business transaction" comment, which I think was started by me . What I meant by that was that our solicitor is obviously asking what she thinks are standard residential conveyancing questions but seller's solicitor may be relaying them in a way that is offending the seller i.e. instead of asking "can you confirm no change to condition of property" she's saying "they now want to know if you've deliberately or accidentally trashed your own home of 20 years since they viewed it and they think you look like a druggie who might do that".

Or, her solicitor is asking the questions in the way they were phrased but seller is just bat-shit crazy.

Yes, of course there are ways of asking the odd difficult question with humour and empathy, but I think it sounds more like the scenario a PP mentioned-people don't move that often, and when they do the psychology of it is different for everyone, which in turn affects the speed of their reactions.

In the nicest possible way, if you are content that you have a good and robust solicitor, then I think you need to relax and let a lot of this wash over you.

Oh, and it's not uncommon for sellers to be utterly and totally crap at answering the 'little' questions (are you leaving the dishwasher etc). This, yet again, is down to the solicitor getting to grips with their client. When I have a client like that I hunt them down like a dog by phone or email until I corner them for answers. Part of the job.

Peppermint I just re-read my last post and it doesn't even make sense. I was trying to say I think for the solicitors its a matter of getting to the bottom of all the issues and getting the contract agreed whereas buyer and seller tend to pussyfoot around. I didn't mean for the solicitor its just another humdrum in/out job. But I think you got what I meant anyway :)

May I ask - you say the undertaking must be given prior to completion. Why prior to completion, and not exchange? What happens if you exchange and then the undertaking is not forthcoming?

x

dont send an apologetic letter or flowers, if she knows you're feeling bad she'll be able to jerk you around some more

poker face woman!

Don't send a note or flowers or anything.

You need to detach yourself emotionally from this process; I know this is incredibly hard to do but you have to or you'll drive yourself crazy. I am the voice of bitter experience here.

Go see the other house; that's just a practical thing to do; you may like it more! You have nothing to reproach yourself for. The questions you are asking are perfectly legitimate and reasonable. A visit pre-exchange is reasonable too given the time lapse.

I'm being lazy, so have uploaded a screenshot of a reasonably full explanation of the undertaking(s) that must be given.

As for timing, ideally these are given well before exchange, but sometimes they are not, for various innocent reasons (forgetting to send them is the most common!), so they can come through between exchange and completion, but as you will see, if the solicitor screws up, THEY will be responsible for making up the shortfall to get the existing mortgage off the title, and then they will have to pursue the seller for the money that the firm has paid out. Does that make sense? In other words, the timing doesn't really matter to you as a buyer, as long as the undertaking has been given. The sellers solicitor must follow through or risk being struck off, losing their job etc. Undertakings, as you will know yourself, are massively serious in any part of the profession.

Gotcha. My fear is probably the same as her solicitor's fear, i.e. that if she's bankrupt it's no good claiming against her. But that has put my mind at rest, thank you.

We built an extension over an existing drain. Out builders just moved it after we got a survey and permission from a water company. It took a while to sort but it really wasn't an issue.

jibberjabberjooo I hope you don't mind but may I PM you about that?

Everyone thank you all for the helpful responses. I really appreciate it!

I agree with some previous posters - insist on a final walk-through or walk away. To be honest, I would have grave concerns about proceeding even if she concedes another viewing. What is she hiding?

I know it's easy for us to say that, though. Much harder when you have your heart set on somewhere. Sorry you're going through this.

I feel for your about the charge issue. We were supposed to exchange last Friday and then Tuesday and then Wednesday and then Friday just gone but were held up because sellers solicitor didn't give ours an undertaking with regard to the charge on the house. Apparently they couldn't get one of the investors to sign. We threatened to walk away and all of a sudden said investor signed late Friday morning and all documentation was passed to our solicitor. We should now exchange AND complete on Monday.

The vendor emailed us twice trying to persuade us to exchange before undertaking received and then to complete. Our solicitor advised us very strongly not to. We now just want the keys in our hand and this protracted procedure over and done with.

To be honest the charge issue would concern me far more than the walk through. The idea that someone who had nothing to do with me and I had no could turn up and take my home away because someone else had not discharged their responsibly would frighten me much more than a misplaced drain.

^^and I had not debt to^^

More than likely not hiding anything but maybe just struggling. I am about to sell and dreading it. I can imagine getting to this stage and thinking "not again" - especially if she is being forced to move. Still - you want to be sure so you should do it - September was a long time ago.

I have an update on my seller.

First of all i am glad i did not write a note or send flowers as it seems she went away and calmed down in her own time, which i hoped she would. She sent an email to her Estate Agent today), which the EA forwarded to me.

Basically said 'sorry if i have seemed obstructive, i found some of the questions invasive but anyway long and short is that i want to exchange on friday and complete by no later than Feb. Buyer can come for a max of 15 minutes after exchange and before completion'.

Broadly speaking, this was a positive development. Obviously i wanted a viewing before we exchange but i thought, today is NOT the day to raise that, things are finally back on track and she's not pulling out - great.

Fast forward a few hours. We took LOTS of photos on our (long) second visit in Sept and i like to pour through them regularly, mentally decorating and furnishing, as you do. They are stored on my finace's laptop and when we got home from that viewing he siphoned off the blurry / crap ones and put them in a separate folder. I just found that separate folder and found a photo of the side return / patio (it's a victorian semi) and THERE'S A FUCKING GREAT BIG MANHOLE COVER.

That's what she's hiding. She's been asked outright how the drains are accessed (a question she still refuses to answer) and whether there is a manhole cover, to which she said 'i've never seen a manhole cover in my garden'.

FUCKING LIAR i am so angry. Seething. She has deliberately concealed information from us and i am just so livid.

However i agree with above poster that it's the charge that should be the real issue.

People can be such scum. I honestly don't know what to do now, apart from lose the house because she won't allow a pre-exchange visit.

Does it have just a yard at the back then, or is there a garden as well? Is the side return the part of the property that you want to extend or is it the back of the house?

It doesn't sound like something she is hiding if it's in plain view! Does she know that you want to extend?

I'd you took lots of photos on a long visit then maybe she is just wondering why on earth you want another visit.

And sorry, but getting to the point of almost exchanging and still be considering pulling out over a possible extention is really shitty. If the extention is a deal reader then surely you'd have ascertained it was going to be possible in this long photography visit uou undertook?!