Heartfelt plea not to remove sash windows

[Rooners]

I thought this might just persuade a few people but it seems such a desperate thing, now, with nearly everyone being told by their surveyor or just persuaded by popular trends to replace beautiful old wooden windows with UPVC.

I've been looking at Rightmove and elsewhere SOLIDLY for about 9 months now, and we are only just exchanging contracts this week on a place so I kind of know the scarcity of houses with original windows.

There are SO few.

People are often not aware of the quality of craftsmanship that went into them - or the high quality of wood that you just cannot get these days, even if you use a high end replacement sash company to make brand new ones to match - and assume that they will not last, will be high maintenance, and that the UPVC ones will be superior.

It's really sad but the thing is, UPVC windows have built in obsolescence - they will eventually get black mould or staining on them, which can't be cleaned off, and will generally last around 50 years as opposed to a hundred or two hundred years with properly maintained wooden ones. All it takes is a coat of paint every year or three, and they really do look so much nicer on an old property than plastic ones.

I am biased as I have a background in antique restoration - if someone tried to sell me a Victorian doll and it had had plastic eyes put in instead of hand blown glass ones, I would reject it out of hand.

Houses not so much as there is so little choice these days, and you're goingto find it hard to find something totally original but it just amazes me that people don't realise it lowers the value of the house quite often.

In places where the windows have well and truly fallen apart then fine, of course you need to replace them, and wooden ones cost an absolute bomb so all sympathies with going with what's affordable.

But I think people are being conned frankly into paying for something that supposedly 'improves' your home when in fact it's chipping away steadily at our architectural heritage, to the point where in a few years there just won't be any proper old windows left, and houses that have them, well maintained, will cost a premium.

No offence intended to anyone, anywhere, except for UPVC salesmen and anyone else who profits from this baloney

[PigletJohn]

Opinions differ. In an old house I prefer original, or if necessary restored or repro features. I dislike plastic doors and windows for several reasons.

I am impatient with people who go for plastic because they think it would be cheaper. It would also be cheaper to wear a plated ring rather than a gold one, or to put a tarpaulin over your house instead of tiles.

I do realise that most of us don't have unlimited funds, but good wooden windows and doors can last 200 years or more with simple care and routine maintenance. If plastic ones last 20 years you should be gratified.

[pluCaChange]

The trouble is that commitment to maintenance, though. If people are not going to live somewhere longer than 5 years, they may well not bother maintaining wooden windows, and then their plastic decision leaves them apparently quids in. It doesn't even have to be as dramatic as "flipping": just, for example, for a family, moving for a primary school catchment, then moving for a secondary school (relying on the sibling rule for younger DC). I know not every property decision is driven by DC, but school admissions are a meaningful schedule-setter in a market. The road near us, next to the highly-rated primary, has grown a garden of estate agent signs: aiming for the January admission date!

Short-termism also applies if the owners don't live in the property (LLs), so get no benefit from any beauty.

[peggyundercrackers]

Rooners when the old windows came out it was only an old house, in the 60s people were modernising their houses... Architectural features like panel doors, cornices etc were done away with in favour of smooth doors, smooth cornices, smooth fireplaces or no fireplaces with central heating. Looking after Architectural features and keeping houses original looking is quite a modern thing - the phase will pass once again though and these features will once again go out of fashion... Everything goes in circles!

[rockybalboa]

Agree. We are Victorian terraced and I paid a lot to replace the nasty 70s metal framed windows with wooden sashes. They are indeed an absolute fucker to paint and keep maintained with fresh paint but some of the upvc monstrosities round here have to be seen to be believed. I put front doors in the same category. Must be wooden, must be 4 panel (ideally not glass) or I get the rage.

[peggyundercrackers]

The big issue with doors is a lot of Victorian doors are quite big and heavy and it's very difficult to get someone to make a new door to the same size. 9 out of 10 times no one will make a door to the same size and if they will they wont give you any kind of guarantee/warranty because of warping or guaranteeing the existing frame will be fine with the weight of the new door. That coupled with buildings that don't have 2 straight walls in them it's extremely difficult.

[rockybalboa]

Our door just came from Magnet. Victorian style 4 panel hardwood door. Job done. Doesn't need to be any more sophisticated than that!

[TensionWheelsCoolHeels]

Peggy, you've reminded me of the replacement front door I had installed - I'd been quoted £2.5k for a wooden door that would have a replica of the original style, but had to go with a cheaper option (still wooden, still styled to be more traditional but it's as flimsy as hell) and it just highlights how squinty my whole flat is. There is a huge slant in the door frame which is accentuated by the panelling on the door. My hall has a running slope to the left as you enter, and while the internal doors are all 1950s replacements, you can still see the weird angles the door frames have & only 1 door out of 5 actually closes.

The transient nature of the home owners in my neck of the woods means that 10/15/20 years for UPVC replacement windows are seen as an acceptable (and in many cases a desirable) option because you are dealing with large, difficult to heat, rooms with high ceilings & draughty fireplaces. No one hangs around long enough to worry about possibly getting 200 yrs use out of more traditional, well maintained windows or doors.

[Rooners]

Good point about investing in a house and I can see why people don't. If i didn't love where I was, I wouldn't invest much in it.

I've invested in our rented flat because I love it and have been happy here for 6 years - we're only moving because we can buy somewhere at last.

But I haven't restored the windows obviously. I have replaced a horrible warped, 80s 'stable door' in the kitchen that did not fit, with a pitch pine, perfect fit, Victorian glazed one which cost me £1.42 on ebay. It actually shuts and the other one didn't.

Just goes to show - and also, I've just bought two 6 panel interior doors from a local charity warehouse for a tenner each, to replace internal doors in our new flat that have been removed in the past.

So you can get this stuff if you want it, for a pittance. Finding old sash windows is very hard work in contrast, as people just chuck them in a skip.

It's sacrilegious imo.

[wonkylegs]

I wouldn't dream of replacing our front door. Mainly because it's 4foot wide, solid hardwood with original mouldings & weighs a ton - our joiner who has rehung it and provided us with more sympathetically hidden draught seals says they would quote several thousand pounds to replace it. Thankfully it's in fab nick and just required a bit of TLC.
It's main advantage is that moving furniture through it is very easy

[Rooners]

Wonky We've got one of those as well - they are brilliant aren't they? I'm going to miss it so much.

Where we're going has a 3ft front door which is still lovely, though shabby and it doesn't seem to hang quite right. I've got one second hand that was less than £200, but will want the glass replacing as it has the wrong number on it that'll be another couple of hundred at least, but I've found a man who makes panels in the original way so they are basically a new version of the old ones.

This is our replacement door.

[sacbina]

I've got 5 x 6 panelled doers which I've tried to give away, sell for 99p, no bloomin takers. taking up valuable space. had to be replaced with fire doors

anyone want some doors in west London?

[peggyundercrackers]

internal doors are quite easy to come by but external doors are much harder to get, ours is about 7ft 8 tall and just a touch under 4ft wide - were victorians really that big? - I would love to go to Magnet rocky and get one of those... we were quoted £3k+VAT last time someone would give us a quote (5 yrs ago now), needless to say its been patched up for the time being.

[mumminio]

Any recommendations for companies in London area who repair/replace sash windows, and do a good job for a fair price?