Heartfelt plea not to remove sash windows

[Rooners]

I thought this might just persuade a few people but it seems such a desperate thing, now, with nearly everyone being told by their surveyor or just persuaded by popular trends to replace beautiful old wooden windows with UPVC.

I've been looking at Rightmove and elsewhere SOLIDLY for about 9 months now, and we are only just exchanging contracts this week on a place so I kind of know the scarcity of houses with original windows.

There are SO few.

People are often not aware of the quality of craftsmanship that went into them - or the high quality of wood that you just cannot get these days, even if you use a high end replacement sash company to make brand new ones to match - and assume that they will not last, will be high maintenance, and that the UPVC ones will be superior.

It's really sad but the thing is, UPVC windows have built in obsolescence - they will eventually get black mould or staining on them, which can't be cleaned off, and will generally last around 50 years as opposed to a hundred or two hundred years with properly maintained wooden ones. All it takes is a coat of paint every year or three, and they really do look so much nicer on an old property than plastic ones.

I am biased as I have a background in antique restoration - if someone tried to sell me a Victorian doll and it had had plastic eyes put in instead of hand blown glass ones, I would reject it out of hand.

Houses not so much as there is so little choice these days, and you're goingto find it hard to find something totally original but it just amazes me that people don't realise it lowers the value of the house quite often.

In places where the windows have well and truly fallen apart then fine, of course you need to replace them, and wooden ones cost an absolute bomb so all sympathies with going with what's affordable.

But I think people are being conned frankly into paying for something that supposedly 'improves' your home when in fact it's chipping away steadily at our architectural heritage, to the point where in a few years there just won't be any proper old windows left, and houses that have them, well maintained, will cost a premium.

No offence intended to anyone, anywhere, except for UPVC salesmen and anyone else who profits from this baloney

[CKOneILoveIt]

i agree with piglet john, if you want them, buy them. don't judge other people who in the past had to do what they could afford to do when it was a choice between noise/cold balanced with what they had in their purse.

[CKOneILoveIt]

i should have put in new paragraph after 'if you want them buy them'

[rhubarbcrumbleplease]

Rooners we've just bought a C17 listed house where the stone mullions were replaced with UPVC, without PP.
Heritage nearly fainted with distress when they saw them.
We nearly fainted when we got the quote to replace them .

[mausmaus]

thing is, we don't want drafty guillotines sash windows, that even double glazed will always be drafty. it's in the design tbh.

for the front of the house we wil get ones that look appropriate, but will be double glazed upvc.
fwiw my parents had upvc windows installed 20+ years ago and they still look good. much better than neighbours wooden ones that would need painting but the last time they didn't do it properly and now it would be a big job.

[Rooners]

don't judge other people who in the past had to do what they could afford to do when it was a choice between noise/cold balanced with what they had in their purse. I would never judge a person for not having enough money for something.

I DO judge the companies that advise people to install these offences to architecture on fraudulent grounds.

It is FAR cheaper to repair and restore all but the most rotten of windows. Mausmaus I'm afraid it isn't necessary to bear draughts when brushes are easy and cheap to fit or have fitted - even free of charge for low income households (I know - I had them fitted a few years ago on a rented victorian house).

The design does have some relation to the architecture in general of that era in that things were built with breathability innate to the structure. You know what happens if you repoint brickwork using non lime mortar - the fronts of your bricks fall off, because the mortar was made to be permeable to allow any ingress to egress.

If you paint Victorian windows shut and have a lack of ventilation, you soon find out when you get mould growing on your walls. A little air is good for the soul and the house.

On a more modern house you can get away with a lot more in the way of draguhtproofing.

Rhubarb that's appalling - they replaced the actual stone with UPVC? Poor house and poor you!

The vendors at our new place have put in a couple of UPVC units at the rear, without PP but as it was more than 4 years ago we won't have to replace them with something nicer unless we want to. It will take a few years to save up enough I think - other things do take priority.

It's just that money isn't a good reason to rip out old and replace with ugly, if the old ones are reparable.

[Rooners]

Example of a modern (80s) wooden sash - wants a repaint but all good.

[Rooners]

And one in the same street from probably the 17th century? Or a Victorian replacement more likely. Again all good.

[Rooners]

And next door to that, a 90s UPVC sash. Can you see the difference? Look at that bow in the bar, the run through and the horn detail in a completely different shade of bleurgh. And the crack above it - nice. You can't even paint over that can you.

[sacbina]

there's always a wee soupson of judgeyness when comment is passed on whether someone else has or hasn't done something that you (a general you, not anyone here in particular) do or don't approve of.

this thread was always going to spark a lot of frantic nodding heads and agreement, whilst everyone else can't really summon the energy to get collective knickers in a twist!
and now't will change. I would be very surprised if anyone these days falls for salesmans patter. it's all about money and what the homeowner can afford

[sacbina]

what they can afford, and ebay they might actually prefer, which has nothing to do with anyone else

[sacbina]

ebay?? but of a Freudian slip perhaps.....

[sacbina]

gaaah, bloomin predictive text!

[CalamitouslyWrong]

Meh. Actually like upvc windows. The 1930s houses on my street with upvc windows look a lot better than the ones that still have the original windows. And they're much warmer.

[CalamitouslyWrong]

Of course, none of the houses on my street ever had the (much fetishised) sash windows the OP is so worried about. They did have drafty, single-glazed wooden jobs.

[MorrisZapp]

Where we live we're only allowed sealed units at the back of the house. At the front we have to have wooden sash windows.

Even shelling out £££ for new double glazed sash windows, we have to tolerate noise and draughts.

I absolutely love my sealed pvc units at the back of the house. My grandparents had no choice, they went to bed early with their socks on etc because there were no other options.

They didn't love their draughty windows, they would rather have been warm.

[Marmitelover55]

These are my replacement upvc sash windows (please excuse dirt as major building work at the back just finished). I'm pretty pleased with them...

[wonkylegs]

We've replaced ours with hardwood double glazed sashes made by a local joiner to match all the quirks of the originals (all had different decorative mouldings) - the best compliment was "wow they look exactly the same"
They are a thing of beauty now.
It cost a small fortune but we are planning to be here for a long time, and we wanted to be able to open & use the windows, make the house more energy efficient, reduce draughts & improve safety/security (very low window cills but no safety glass with small kids made me nervous)

[Rooners]

I'm not judging - not the homeowners. It makes me really, really sad and a bit depressed when people seem to believe though that putting in monstrously ugly plastic windows is necessary and I do think that there is a general pervasive belief that this is the case.

I don't blame individual homeowners for this nor do I judge them for falling for it.

But you can see the arguments are fairly similar to those in favour of man made fabrics say 40-60 years ago, oh this polyester is lovely, it doesn't need ironing and hangs much better and it dries quickly too - what do you mean it won't last as long? Nonsense.

Two weeks later the fabric is bobbly and thin and looks shocking, and suddenly everyone charges far more for anything cotton.

The reason proper wooden sash windows cost so much is that demand has been killed off by the ubiquity of the plastic ones.

[CalamitouslyWrong]

Maybe not everyone actually agrees with you that upvc windows are 'monstrously ugly' though. Have you considered that?

[Rooners]

and obviously because they will last longer, look better and are made with skill, not mass produced in a factory.

Saying that, yours do look very elegant Marmite.

[wonkylegs]

Rooners - that's not exactly true. Wooden sash windows cost so much mainly because they are handcrafted and require skilled workers & time.
Upvc replacements are usually casement windows and can be factory made requiring less skill & time.

[Rooners]

Yes I've considered it. It's probable that some people prefer the look of it.
Sometimes I think UPVC looks nice, when it is recently done.

Sometimes, on some houses, it is an improvement.

But a lot of the time, it isn't.

[Rooners]

X posts Wonky

Some wooden sashes are mass produced though - some modern, non sash, non period style windows can certainly be made in a factory setting.

We had some in our old 60s house. They were put in in the 90s I think.

[UphillPhil]

Our house had it's sash windows double glazed and restored by a specialist: No draughts whatsoever!

Probably more expensive than whacking UPVC in, but certainly less expensive than equivalent wood framed double glazing custom built to fit.

Can recommend a sash window refurb bloke to anyone in Oxford, although Oxford seems to be full of such people if you search Google.

[lazysummer]

Another vote for sash windows here. Our house was built over 100 years ago. The sash windows are still going strong, but the lost conversion windows (dating from the 70s I think) have been replaced because of rotting wood. (We replaced with more wood windows as I dislike upvc)