Heartfelt plea not to remove sash windows

[Rooners]

I thought this might just persuade a few people but it seems such a desperate thing, now, with nearly everyone being told by their surveyor or just persuaded by popular trends to replace beautiful old wooden windows with UPVC.

I've been looking at Rightmove and elsewhere SOLIDLY for about 9 months now, and we are only just exchanging contracts this week on a place so I kind of know the scarcity of houses with original windows.

There are SO few.

People are often not aware of the quality of craftsmanship that went into them - or the high quality of wood that you just cannot get these days, even if you use a high end replacement sash company to make brand new ones to match - and assume that they will not last, will be high maintenance, and that the UPVC ones will be superior.

It's really sad but the thing is, UPVC windows have built in obsolescence - they will eventually get black mould or staining on them, which can't be cleaned off, and will generally last around 50 years as opposed to a hundred or two hundred years with properly maintained wooden ones. All it takes is a coat of paint every year or three, and they really do look so much nicer on an old property than plastic ones.

I am biased as I have a background in antique restoration - if someone tried to sell me a Victorian doll and it had had plastic eyes put in instead of hand blown glass ones, I would reject it out of hand.

Houses not so much as there is so little choice these days, and you're goingto find it hard to find something totally original but it just amazes me that people don't realise it lowers the value of the house quite often.

In places where the windows have well and truly fallen apart then fine, of course you need to replace them, and wooden ones cost an absolute bomb so all sympathies with going with what's affordable.

But I think people are being conned frankly into paying for something that supposedly 'improves' your home when in fact it's chipping away steadily at our architectural heritage, to the point where in a few years there just won't be any proper old windows left, and houses that have them, well maintained, will cost a premium.

No offence intended to anyone, anywhere, except for UPVC salesmen and anyone else who profits from this baloney

[Rooners]

In class terms however I hope you don't imagine I'm among the upper echelons. I'm nowhere near even upper middle, as far as I can tell.

[CalamitouslyWrong]

No, but you've absorbed the architectural taste judgements of the elite. You don't have to be posh for that to be the case.

I really don't agree that we owe anything to the buildings we live in. I honestly don't agree that sash windows (with bumpy glass) are anything like as 'beautiful' as you make out. They're just bloody windows. Lots of people actually do like plastic windows. Just because you don't, doesn't mean they're wrong.

[LEMmingaround]

I think that modern windows look great. In modern houses. Modern windows in old houses ,not so much.

[CalamitouslyWrong]

But that doesn't mean that other people are wrong if they like the upvc windows they've installed in the Victorian/Edwardian/whatever else house. They're allowed to have different taste to you.

[LEMmingaround]

I agree. However many planning departments wont. If houses are in conservation areas then they must
only have the original style windows so I don't think its always about individual tastes.

Imagine you buy a lovely victorian property in a road with similar properties. You buy that house partly because you like the road. Then your neighbours put in double glazed upvc windows that look awful. You're not going to be thrilled.

In the 80s and 90s everyone was ripping out perfectly good windows to put the upvc windows in. Thankfully planning departments have put some sort of restriction on this and also people are prefering to be sympathetic to the original building.

New box sash windows have to adhere to the building regs just like upvc windows and have to meet a minimum standard of thermal insulation which will be higher than older upvc windows.

I love rippled glass. Its because glass is actually a liquid and flows very slowly.

[Rooners]

No, but you've absorbed the architectural taste judgements of the elite. You don't have to be posh for that to be the case.

I know nothing about the architectural taste judgments of the elite - could you point me at it so I can get an idea?

I don't know if I'm a snob. All I can say is I grew up in a family of people with varying tastes - on one side a very practical, homely, teaching family that produced a mother who doesn't really like fuss or bother or art. Loves music though, and definitely prefers the 60s house, for no reason I can understand except the straight lines.

And on the other side a family of painters, I mean proper artists who also taught at university art depts and had such a wealth of fabrics and objects of beauty that I can barely move for it all now that my Grandmother has died. Her house was a vision of festivity and glorious texture and colour.

I think I've probably absorbed a lot more from these two factions than I ever could from some random with money.

I'm talking about my taste, and I understand that other people like different things. But I do think that there is something to be said for hard work, craftsmanship, high quality materials and longevity versus something that's made in a factory with no skill, no room for adaptation, and which doesn't fit in either cosmetically or technically with the building it's being shoved into.

You can get into an argument about the subjectivity of beauty if you like but I think this is purely common sense.

[Applefallingfromthetree2]

I don't see the connection between social class and wooden sash windows. Surely it is an aesthetic thing, UPVC in old houses just doesn't look as good. If you don't believe me just look at all the lovely old terraces of Victorian houses in London. I have seen some of these houses where the replacement UPVC of all styles not only look awful but don't actually open!

UPVC windows and conservatories, like pebble dash and concrete tiles in the past are just a heavily marketed money making exercise that ruins old houses, they are not improvements in the long run. It amuses me the way that EAs sell UPVC as a benefit as in time UPVC will yellow and crack. Of course they can always be painted over with UPVC paint which rather defeats the object.

Coloured UPVC windows on contemporary flats and houses, particularly when the walls are rendered look good but otherwise no.

[WaxyDaisy]

I do agree that people are more important than things. I also agree that there is a lot of obsessing about design/style in those who can afford it. It strikes me as rather a first world problem. I would think the vast majority of the UK population cannot afford to restore/replace original sash windows with custom made wooden efforts. I will not judge them for wanting to be warm, or any other reason they have for doing what they like with their house and unless they are restricted due to a conservation area or listed building status everyone else should butt out.

[Lucked]

I was with you 100% until I bought a house with original windows now I don't know. You can replace upvc with wood if it is your dream house, it isn't a one way street.

Ours are rotten and look horrendous our neighbours true sash upvc look great so I am a bit meh about this now and have window envy for my neighbour. Upvc can look bad but so can wood.

I have 23 freezing windows to sort out, many rotting and all painted shut I haven't made a final decision probably a mixture of new wood, refurbished and maybe uPVC at the back.

[SoftSheen]

We would love to replace the UPVC windows in our Victorian house with proper wooden sash windows. We haven't because to have it done properly would cost £1750 per window.

[wasabipeanut]

We had all ours restored about 4 years ago - they wouldn't have survived another Winter. There were cracked panes, rotting frames and they were rattley and freezing. We have 2 big bays and 3 smaller individual ones and the actual restoration cost about £2500 or so. Then another £2k to paint all the woodwork (newer extension) so whilst it wasn't cheap it wasn't that much more than ripping them all out. Needed one new frame made as it had rotted through. They are all draft proofed, ropes and weights restored etc. and they all work wonderfully. We repainted them this year ourselves (well DH did when made redundant) and the wood was fine.

DH mooted the idea of plastic. I wouldn't entertain it - I always wanted sash windows! The lack of drafts does have one drawback which is bastardised condensation from Autumn to Spring. Double glazing them could fix that but it seems to change the way light hits the glass and I like the existing set up too much. It's such a pretty house.

[StrumpersPlunkett]

I am so with you if it wasnt for money we would have had wooden sash double glazing put in here instead of UPVC
But at a quote for £26,000 for the wood and £11,000 for the UPVC and a baby on the way we had no real options.

[pluCaChange]

The economics of property in tjis country is against you.

Private rented accommodation is, in many places, in big demand, so (a) an owner (not paying the daily bills) doesn't have to invest for beauty and his/her own comfort, and (b) that owner (paying the one-off bills) will go for something which "doesn't need maintenance", certainly not painting every five years. Also, (c)whether it's a buy to let or an accidental LL let, it doesn't take an idiot to realise that there is more return on investment if you spent less on the property in yhe first place. Greater investment, on beauty or efficiency,does not equsl higher rent (and LLs who are precious about thrir designer wsllpaper or whatever are just stressed. And poor! ).

That brings me onto homeowners, who are subject to squeezes, too. With house prices towering over incomes (and especially disposable incomes), perhaps there isn't any money left for new windows, or if there is, those windows will have an economic case to answer: return on investment will be judges on cost and energy efficiency.

Homeowners, whether owner-occupierd or LLs, probably also count on increasing property prices regardless of the quality or quantity of investment. Windfall economics.

Basically if the bricks and mortar weren't such an unproductively costly rip off asset, there might be more money available for windows!

[VanitasVanitatum]

I love my sash windows, they're definitely staying they are cold in winter but I'm getting thick curtains. Need new sills though, not looking forward to that quote!

[Isabeller]

I hope you don't mind me asking but is there a reasonably cost effective way I could apply some kind of secondary glazing to (someone else's, rented) sash window? Their flat is very very cold in winter and they are quite badly affected by it.

If I could do the one in their bedroom they could have at leat one warm room to be in.

[HarrietSchulenberg]

My sash windows used to rattle so loudly that the people across the street complained about the noise onwindy nights. They could hear it through theit double glazing.

We had to wedge the top section against the bottom to muffle it, which left nearly a 2 inch gap. In the winter mychildren's bedrooms were so draughty that they had to come in with us to keep warm. Victorian sashes and Victorian living standards.

It was going to cost double the price of UPVC to replace with new sashes and houses round here (cheap terraces) are not valued as "period homes", just low cost housing. UPVC wad and still is seen as a selling point and increases the value. There were no other period features left (fireplaces etc all long gone) so we went for UPVC fitted by a local company with a great reputation.

Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved replacement sashes,and I felt like a vandal when the old glass came out, but it was worth it for finally having a warm home.

Downside is mould and condensation caused by reduced ventilation, but kept at bay by opening windows regularly, wiping with weak bleach solution and painting with anti-damp undercoat.

And when they were removed the sashes were packed full with Victorian soot as even then they used cheap crap to fill gaps in the box space.

[Rooners]

Isabeller, yes, there is a way and it depends on your budget but I think the best balance of economy vs effectiveness is probably a sheet of perspex, held in placewith strips along the edges - magnetic strips, or I think velcro sometimes? I am not sure as I've never used it.

If this is too dear, and it might be, then brushes are probably the way to go - if the person is on a limited income especially, as they can be provided and fitted free of charge by various national agencies who are on a mission to save energy.

If you look up Coldbusters, that's one of the schemes and we used it to get a new boiler about 5 years ago in our rented flat.

I hope this helps.

[Rooners]

Look here - they may be able to help.

It doesn't matter if it is rented, as long as you can obtain the agent's/landlord's permission in writing.

Don't know if Coldbusters is still going but they change the name every couple of years, it's the same idea.

[drspouse]

We have replacement sash windows (double glazed). Some are now half sash or fake sash because full sash were even more expensive.

We probably won't recoup the cost when we move, sadly, though as we're now in a conservation area (brought in after we did the windows) hopefully any new owners will appreciate them.

[Isabeller]

Thank you Rooners, will follow that up. I could probably do at least one windows with perspex & velcro.

[Woozlebear]

Totally agree op. I'm lucky that we could afford to get new timber sash widows in the last house we renovated, but I really felt that since we could we had a historical, aesthetic and environmental duty to. Plastic ones cannot be maintained, and dont last long and are entirely unsustainable materials. Our new sashes were beautiful, heavy and solid and the house was warm and quiet with them. I now have a house with original sashes and they are beautiful but horrid - rattly, noisy, draughty. Will replace but only with like.

Loads of people round me say they want to but can't afford to, but then buy a spanking new range rover.

Personally I don't agree that any plastic ones look good. I've looked at brands approved in conservation areas and they still don't have Brighton fasteners and even if the horns are continuous - ie not a separate bit of plastic stuck on that discolours at a different rate and has a visible join- then the wrap around trim is a different material and looks horrible within a few years. Plus you always have the draught proof strip visible. They're a fundamentally different construction from timber sashes.

I also think if you can possibly afford them, getting plastic instead is a false economy as they only look clean and new for about 5 years and any dents or knocks can't be filled and painted. They'll never last a lifetime.

A lot of people also seem to think that you can have 'sashes' or ' wooden windows' OR double glazing. As if its a choice. Any new window HAS to be double glazed now.

I know a good company in sw London if anyone is looking.

[Rooners]

Woozle thank you for a great post that makes a lot of good points.

I agree that the construction is totally different in the UPVC versions - also I've read about quite a lot of issues people have with UPVC ones jamming, getting stuck etc so they aren't like a better version of the wooden ones, or something - UPVC isn't suited to this design really.

It can be made to be fairly good but will never be as strong - it's like trying to force a material with totally different properties into a design that works superbly in the original material.

Like trying to build your furniture out of UPVC. Plastic dining table anyone? Plastic kitchen cabinets?! It would be ridiculous.

[peggyundercrackers]

we have an old Victorian house and back in the 60s someone decided to remove the mullions out of the windows and replace the two sash windows with one huge swivel window which was 8ft x 8ft in 4 of our rooms and they did some strange building work with the other windows where they blocked the bottom of the windows up with wood to raise the level of the sill. we already knew we wanted to go back to sash windows when we looked at the house as the windows which had been there since the 60s were finished and the ugliest things I have ever seen.

we got a few people in to give us a quote on changing the windows over, the first few quotes were for wooden sash windows and just to replace the windows not including the frames/boxes or the stonework required to put the mullions back or the paintwork for the windows we were quoted between £26-£30k - there was 14 windows. Once we started digging more though we found the sash boxes had also been removed and there was no weights, sills were completely rotten etc. etc. the price went up another 10k - there was no way we were going to spend £40k replacing 14 windows... We had the relevant stonework carried out and then put in PVC sash windows and it cost us about £7k for the windows alone. we bought the windows direct from supplier and had our own joiner fit them - we haven't looked back since - from the street 30mtrs away you would never know they weren't wooden windows.

although we live in a conservation area the rules didn't really matter to us as the windows were not original so we could not be forced to put back to original.

its all well and good saying do this, do that but its not always financially viable to do these things - in our case replacing the windows with wooden sash windows would not have added £40k to the price of the house so it makes no financial sense. As someone else mentioned up thread its a house first and foremost not a museum piece.

[Rooners]

Peggy, I can completely understand what you did and why you did it. I think you did well to even consider what they looked like, and replacing the replacements was a charitable act in itself.

You sound like you have markedly improved the house. I'm grateful to people like you. It's those who take OUT perfectly serviceable original sash windows (like your house's previous owners) that I find it difficult to understand.

[Honsandrevels]

The previous owners of our Victorian house had most of the sash windows restored. They don't rattle at all and although I'm sure upvc would be warmer, they look a thousand times nicer. Upvc, even sash ones, have a modern sheen to the glass which marks then put as upvc a mile off.

The person who suggested it was a class issue, my v proper, staunchly middle class mil prefers all things fresh, modern and upvc over run down and old (her opinion of our house!).