Heartfelt plea not to remove sash windows

[Rooners]

I thought this might just persuade a few people but it seems such a desperate thing, now, with nearly everyone being told by their surveyor or just persuaded by popular trends to replace beautiful old wooden windows with UPVC.

I've been looking at Rightmove and elsewhere SOLIDLY for about 9 months now, and we are only just exchanging contracts this week on a place so I kind of know the scarcity of houses with original windows.

There are SO few.

People are often not aware of the quality of craftsmanship that went into them - or the high quality of wood that you just cannot get these days, even if you use a high end replacement sash company to make brand new ones to match - and assume that they will not last, will be high maintenance, and that the UPVC ones will be superior.

It's really sad but the thing is, UPVC windows have built in obsolescence - they will eventually get black mould or staining on them, which can't be cleaned off, and will generally last around 50 years as opposed to a hundred or two hundred years with properly maintained wooden ones. All it takes is a coat of paint every year or three, and they really do look so much nicer on an old property than plastic ones.

I am biased as I have a background in antique restoration - if someone tried to sell me a Victorian doll and it had had plastic eyes put in instead of hand blown glass ones, I would reject it out of hand.

Houses not so much as there is so little choice these days, and you're goingto find it hard to find something totally original but it just amazes me that people don't realise it lowers the value of the house quite often.

In places where the windows have well and truly fallen apart then fine, of course you need to replace them, and wooden ones cost an absolute bomb so all sympathies with going with what's affordable.

But I think people are being conned frankly into paying for something that supposedly 'improves' your home when in fact it's chipping away steadily at our architectural heritage, to the point where in a few years there just won't be any proper old windows left, and houses that have them, well maintained, will cost a premium.

No offence intended to anyone, anywhere, except for UPVC salesmen and anyone else who profits from this baloney

[Roonerspism]

I don't post much so don't worry as shouldn't be much scope for confusion!

[bigkidsdidit]

I agree. I live in a conservation area and the whole town has banned PVC. Lovely :)

[perfectview]

Totally agree OP. We have just sold a house with the original sash windows - the only ones left in the terrace. Was annoyed that the surveyor couldn't temper their comments about their inefficiency with some sort of solution that involved keeping them and a comment that they were an original feature. Although they were colder I find that preferable to the airless feeling of double glazing, but as someone else has said they can adapted.

[FoxSticks]

They can't always be repaired though. We have sashes in our Victorian house, some of which are rotting and cannot be refurbed. The worst windows were in our dining room where there were also gaps, which could have been fixes but rotting would that couldn't. We had them replaced with identical wooden sashes, but as the room is triple aspect with a bay window it was really expensive. We can't afford to do anything else to the rest of the house yet. Are replacement wooden ones ok?

[Rooners]

Fox, in terms of aesthetics wood is absolutely the best and in terms of economics you have also made a really wise choice.

Read the link - PVC does not last indefinitely in an attractive state, and cannot be maintained, which is the worst thing about it - once it's bowed or warped or depreciated cosmetically, because the surface has degraded allowing mould to grow, you just have to live with it or rip it out for some more new windows.

Wood will last you, and your house, many many years if you just keep it painted and modern paints are incredibly effective.

So I think you have done exactly the right thing.

[Rooners]

I'm going out to take photos later on. Of both sorts! Will post back later.

I have to say UPVC sashes aren't at all bad from the recent ones I've seen, however I still fail to see the point of getting those when wood isn't much dearer if you go for high end PVC.

I was subject to a hard sell on those the other week while ringing around for quotes for wooden ones. Amazing what companies will promote in order to make you come back for more in 20-30 years. It's obscene. It was all 'have a think about the UPVC ones' when I was perfectly clear I wanted wood.

[FoxSticks]

Phew, I think they look beautiful and that room is a lot warmer now. I'm glad that they are ok from a conservation point of view because we really want to maintain the charm of our lovely house.

[FoxSticks]

Phew, I think they look beautiful and that room is a lot warmer now. I'm glad that they are ok from a conservation point of view because we really want to maintain the charm of our lovely house.

[Rooners]

They sound perfect

I have spoken to the conservation people at the council here quite a bit, and they are very particular about what is acceptable and what isn't.

There's a chart somewhere. Basically UPVC is refused out of hand, unless it's sliding sashes, in which case the design has to meet with approval anyway. Wood has to be a similar design too, but is generally fine.

If you think about it, wood is a far stronger material, if protected from water ingress.

I hate UPVC with a passion and think it should be banned even in new builds, but I can see why it is popular in the short term. It isn't an answer though, not really. Even getting someone else in to paint your frames every year or even five years is cheaper than putting in something that will last at most 50 years before it looks hideous.

[WaxyDaisy]

Sash windows are lovely to look at if properly maintained. However, I have small children and have done for the last decade (preschoolers). No way would I want to live in a house with sash windows for safety reasons. I want to be able to open a small window and leave it without worrying a child will climb/fall out. It would completely put me off buying a house.

FIL's house has sash windows and is bloody freezing. He will not replace them, as thinks like the OP, but can never afford the new ones in keeping. They are as well maintained as possible, just extremely old (and crap).

[OliviaBenson]

Thank you for this thread! It really grates me and all the excuses that are given are usually just a load of tosh. "They couldn't be restored" really? Who advised you that- the uPVC window manufacturer? I hate hate hate how people say they are better for the environment- because uPVC is so good for the environment huh? The fact that draft stripping can dramatically increase their efficiency seems to bypass lots of people too.

Don't even get me started on damp proofing companies.......

[OliviaBenson]

Waxy- you can get stops on the sashes so that children can't open the bottom. I grew up (along with 1000s children I imagine) with sash windows - it was never an issue.

[trixymalixy]

I cried when I walked past our old Victorian semi a few years after selling. The new owners had taken out the sash windows with beautiful original stained glass with swallows and bluebells and replaced with horrid UPVC!!!

The stained glass was one of the selling points of the house. Fucking idiots have wiped thousands off their house value.

[FoxSticks]

Waxy, all of our sashes, old and new have locks so you can't open them more than 4 inches, there's no way our toddler could fall out of them. On hot days we open the top sashes in our dining room so get lots of air in that way. The old sashes are painted shut at the top so we can't do that in other rooms but they are such large windows that you get lots of air in any way through having them locked open.

[ChippyMinton]

Can anyone recommend a joiner / restorer in London / South-East?

DH wants upvc, I would prefer to restore and draft proof our sashes.

[FoxSticks]

We used this company. We had a few quotes but found theirs to be competitive and we had friends who had also used them. I think independent joiners can be cheaper, but I couldn't find any that I felt happy with.

[TensionWheelsCoolHeels]

Polter, your figures illustrate the problem in trying to emulate the sash windows with replacements - £1500-£2000 per window for me would work out £12k-£16k, whereas what I have now cost me £4000. They may well be an affront to those horrified by my choice, but the reality is, I couldn't afford to come close to replicating something to the tune of £16k.

Same goes for the fireplaces in my flat - all the originals had been ripped out before I bought and replaced with the most hideous 1950s salmon coloured tiled monstrosities. I'd love nothing more that to restore them to the original style/size (and I've done loads of research to find out what that entailed) but again, the cost is prohibitive and means for now I'm stuck with these hideous fireplaces until it win the lottery or receive an unexpected windfall.

'Tis the reality I'm afraid. Maintaining original features in very old buildings is an expensive business that few (in the current climate) can afford.

[LEMmingaround]

chippyminton we are in the south east. Dp can either fit the new windows or restore your old ones. He cannot however solve husband and wife disputes over what is best. :) pm me if you'd like more info.

[FoxSticks]

I might get in contact with you LEM if we ever have enough money to do the others!

[Jynxed]

Love this thread! Here here! If it were up to me I would make it a requirements to get planning permission to remove sash windows, and that should be automatically refused! Sash windows can be refurbed and often for less than the cost of replacement, and a bit of natural ventilation is good for a building and prevents condensation building up.

[expatinscotland]

They are bloody cold. Fuck looks, who wants to freeze or burn money on heating with those old things in?

[ChippyMinton]

Have sent you a PM LEM.
And thanks for link Foxsticks, will check them out.

[mausmaus]

expat says it so much more eloquently than I ever could :o