New detached house not so detached

[Gemmawashere]

Hello - I have been reading many a useful topic on here for ages and am now hoping somebody can help with my issue regarding boundaries etc.

We are about to sign for a new house - a persimmon detached house that was already built with wall and roof and is just having the insides finished.

The neighbours to each side have already moved in - perhaps 1 month ago max.

This is our first house so not very experienced with how it all goes - anyway, the first thing was - which we stupidly didnt realise, the house is detached but we don't have access to one of side of our house - I thought it was a bit strange that, whats the point in having a detached? anyway, it appears this is quite normal so no real issues. The wall that we can't have access to forms the boundary, and on further inspection our neighbour has bolted his gate to this wall, he has also bolted his back garden fence to this wall and also there is a plank of wood bolted to my house rear wall! (does that make sense) which helps support his fence, and then to make matters worse the 5 wall posts are completely into our garden and over the boundary so that his fence is nice and flush with our wall! and then the cheeky guy has put flags down which go under his fence and a couple of inches past the edge of our house and into our garden!

So then to the other side - the other neighbour, they have built a supporting wall around there garden so that they can have it flattened (the gardens have an incline) which is a good idea, she has built this wall on the boundary line so I suppose half of it is into our garden - not the end of the world and I dont think this is a relationship breaker, but then the fence built on top of the wall has its 4 or 5 posts into our garden and they are secured into concrete!

I wanted to get the garden flattened - got a friend round, he said it couldn't really be done as next doors fence posts would end up not in the ground - would have to build another supporting wall way into our garden (am aware we need to build a supporting wall anyway) when really I should be able to build right up to the boundary line (which technically I can't build right up to the line as her wall is half over anyway - and thats if we got the posts removed!)

Sounds straight forward - so I spoke to the rude sales office, they inform me that they gave permission to the neighbours for all this to be done whilst they were still the 'owners' of the house! and we can't do anything about it - other than not sign for the house (next week), but it really is our dream home :(

Has anybody any ideas?

Thanks
Gemma
(sorry its so long)

Not sure if this is helpful, but the second phase of the Help to Buy scheme was extended to all houses, not just new builds.

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/mortgages/10362847/Help-to-Buy-Everything-you-need-to-know.html

If you do decide to negotiate with them because you feel that you are going to end up here as all else being equal, the house works for you, then make sure that you are going to be playing hard ball to make sure you aren't ripped off - because I'd bet that Persimmon will try to do all they can to get you to buy giving you as little as possible.

Decide what you want to happen as your minimum and your ideal, and then add some more in besides, so that when it comes to negotiating, you have some slack to work with.

So, for example, work out what %age of the garden they have taken away from you and take more than that off the price of the house - then you have some negotiating room if they don't want to knock that much off (chances are pretty high that they won't accept your first offer!). And remember to build in a percentage 'just because' - you chose the house on the basis of it having a wider garden, they are now screwing you in that respect. if they levelled the garden for the other neighbours - could you get them to do that for you too? (think you said that earlier) and then the sorting the fence out becomes their problem.

Definitely ask for help on the legal board on here - there are some really helpful people that will be able to tell you exactly how much bullshit -or not - you were thrown by Mr Persimmon!

Good luck

Double fences are quite common on corner sites.

We have four neighbours whose gardens back on to the side of ours. When we moved into this house, almost all of those neighbours' fences were different styles and colours (and states of disrepair) so we had our own fence put up just inside our boundary which means we have a nice looking fence which we can paint any colour we like and grow climbers up etc.

It also makes the fences very strong - there's no way they will ever blow down!

OP, I wouldn't go ahead with buying this house if I were you. Neighbourly/boundary disputes can be extremely stressful as you are already finding out.

Am aware we would have to let our neighbours onto our land in order to make repairs etc, and honestly we would not be so petty.
My point was that both neighbours have the smooth side - i don't blame them, I would do the same! But The posts are on my side - onto my land, let's say I decide to just go ahead and build thick retaining walls, I can't build them at the edge of my land because my neighbours fence and posts are on it - hence the entire post, but what if I build my wall as close as I can to there posts, what would happen if they needed to get the posts - which are on my land anyway and now inaccessible due to my wall - also on my land!

i think if you own a fence, firstly this will show on the deeds but i always thought the way you knew that without deeds was that you had the fence post etc on your side of the fence. i know of a solicitor who spent ages sorting out a boundary dispute over a retaining wall, i think you need to be very clear where you are and what you own before going any further?

This sounds like such a nughtmare. Surely in the long run pulling out now will be the cheapest option? Save for another six months, learn from this experience, and try again .

Emma the posts should be on the owners side so they can maintain them. My neighbour did this, the fence started leaning and she wanted to prop it up On our side, I said no, it's to be done from hers. The landscaper had to put massive bolts through the fence to make it work, with struts on her side. Her problem not mine.

I suggest fixing wires and climbing plants onto the fence. These will look pretty until the fence eventually comes down with the weight of the plants, the neighbour will then think twice about doing it again.

Contentedsidewinder she should take the fence down and give it back to them, like you do fruit from someone's tree on your side. It's their fruit but you can touch it to give it back to them.

But I wouldn't advise doing that, a pleasant conversation with the neighbour would be far more effective.

I'd be livid

Down one side of my garden are the end fences of about 5 houses, all getting bit old and saggy from when those houses were built 15yrs ago. We had a farmers type wire fence to the inside of it when we moved in, so technically, we've stolen a about 6inches of land in a strip. However, all of their fence posts etc are THEIR sides, so they didn't even encroach on the strip of no mans land when they were all built. Persimmons have a rotten reputation round here

Surely in the same way that if you parked your car permanently on my land, I could send you a letter announcing that if it was not moved by X date, I would be removing it, you could do the same thing with the fence?

Gemma, your solicitor doesn't seem to be explaining things to you properly or giving you the advice that she should to represent your best interests.
You should post on Garden Law. There's no point having all this endless speculation here.

I wouldn't buy this house. There will be a better one.

Incidentally, have you got any access for machinery to level the rear garden, or would it have to be manual labour?

The problem with too many post son this thread is that the OP and the posters keep calling the property in question the OPs house and saying how they would react if someone put a fence on their land.

It is NOT the OPs house or land. That is a fundamental difference. The neighbours did not steal her land. They did not build their fences incorrectly. The owner of the house is persimmon and they did the work thus giving permission. Taking down the fence as some idiots have suggested is criminal damage and your chances of winning in court are slim. Your chance of making enemies of the neighbours are almost certain. Lose/lose situation.

Protest all you like. Wring your hands and puff out your chests that this is unfair. It may indeed be. But it is what it is and do not buy the house if you are not prepared to accept it.

The owner of the house is persimmon and they did the work thus giving permission

That would depend on whether the fences and gate were erected as part of the sales contract and payment between Persimmon as a company or whether the work was carried out separately by new home owners paying workers on site, which is often the case after purchase.

Persimmon as vendors of the properties may not be aware of the fence disputes and above all they're really not concerned because once a property is sold it's no longer their problem.

In any case the point that matters is whether the plot of land for this property is to be conveyed as per the registration or whether it's subsequently been encroached upon by fencing. It doesn't matter if the current owner has 'given permission' or not, it is a potential for future maintenance issues and boundary disputes and could cause problems for the OP if and when they in turn become the vendor of this property.

Gemma you keep asking if you have to accept things?
You don't have to accept anything that doesn't seem right to you or that you're not happy with.
Remember people who are trying to sell to you will tell you anything to stop you asking what might be difficult questions and once you've signed the contract then you will have even less negotiating power.

I am so confused how a company building something on your land removes the pre-discussed and (I assume paid for) boundary lines?

Surely if you buy the house, on the deeds it says 'X amount of M's garden' etc etc

Surely if that is the case, if I were the first person to buy a house on an estate, I could simply build a wall 2 M into the neighbours garden and claim it as 'mine'

That is what is confusing me. How does building a fence change the deeds? How does building a fence change the boundary lines?

Its not nice, net to call other people 'idiots'. Frankly I would rather be in the company of 'idiots' than arseholes. But perhaps thats just me.

Thanks enriquetheringbearinglizard, and everybody else for the comments.

enriquetheringbearinglizard - interesting you say that about access, because the 'other' neighbour has erected the post on our side and on our land it has narrowed our access, and, on looking at my mates mini digger - it would have fitted if the posts were not there, and now it won't.

Update: - we have asked for a quote / how much it will cost to pull out of the sale now and asked the solicitor how we go about 'suing' for our losses etc, we are still waiting for second solicitor to read over things.

Interestingly, somebody higher up within persimmon has contacted us offering free fences etc - which is not what we want and will not solve the issue but is extremely positive that something might be done etc

Thanks - I might post in the garden law thread and see what they say.

kind regards

Gemma

That is a massive issue about access and will cause no end of problems. I think you need to say to persimmon that the only way this can be resolved is if the fences are moved so that access to the garden is possible.

Please don't buy this one! It strikes me that if you have some money for the garden it would be better spent pulling out of this sale and getting a different house.

I think the standard minimum width for side access/passages etc is 900mm (although 1000mm is better ). You can get mini diggers and other garden machinery though gaps of 900mm.

I would pull out, every time the kids kick that ball and it vibrates through your new home, you will be getting more and more annoyed and hate it.

Old neighbour once hung a punch bag next to their patio window (outside). Every time they hit it, it would vibrate through my house (semi). I had to ask them to stop as I was losing the will to live. I imagine it will be the same with a football, only with the added joy of the darlings knocking your door every 2 minutes to retrieve it from your garden, or climbing over the fence as they can't be bothered to ask.

Just for the record, I recently had to get legal advice about 'the nicer side of fence panels' and was told by 2 property lawyers independent of each other, Land Registry, CAB and an agriculturist with multiple highly regarded qualifications that there is no legal obligation whatsoever that the nicer side has to go towards the neighbours.

You are perfectly within your rights to have it on your side as the land owner.

It is merely a myth in this country. You cannot be used for this. I had to seek legal advice from all of these bodies mentioned due to a nightmare neighbour.

cannot be sued*

Another thing to consider is what will happen when you want to sell on.

Limited access, problems on land regristry showing boundaries and deeds dont match up etc could all hinder a future sale of this house.

Its kust a mess that the builders seem to have created. Just walk away whilst you can, the misery, stress and potential headaches for years and years is just not worth it imo.

I really hope you can sue and recover some costs but even if you cant I think it makes financial and good sense to just walk away from this mess. I really feel for you - its so hard when you fall for a house and have mentally moved in.

Don't be seduced by free fences. You still have less garden than you expected. Your neighbours gate is attached to your house and you have to look at 2 wrong side of the fences. And you will be living next to people who think nothing of stealing when they want something.

Persimmon want you to buy the house. That is all they care about, not you.

I would really and honestly take a big step back and weigh up the pros and cons.

you like the house, you can afford the house, it is in the right spot for you.

the neighbours fence posts on one side encroach by half the width of a fence post ( so about an inch). The fence is not pretty. a gate has been put between the houses- presumably it needed to be. i assume you will want a gate on the other side of the house?

The same has happened on the other side.

The builders may be able to offer something off the purchase price (i would be tempted to ask for cold hard cash on completion). I doubt the land registry are fussed over 2 inches of garden.

all i am saying is, dont cut your nose off to spite your face. it really doesnt sound to me at all that you have problematic neighbours.