New detached house not so detached

[Gemmawashere]

Hello - I have been reading many a useful topic on here for ages and am now hoping somebody can help with my issue regarding boundaries etc.

We are about to sign for a new house - a persimmon detached house that was already built with wall and roof and is just having the insides finished.

The neighbours to each side have already moved in - perhaps 1 month ago max.

This is our first house so not very experienced with how it all goes - anyway, the first thing was - which we stupidly didnt realise, the house is detached but we don't have access to one of side of our house - I thought it was a bit strange that, whats the point in having a detached? anyway, it appears this is quite normal so no real issues. The wall that we can't have access to forms the boundary, and on further inspection our neighbour has bolted his gate to this wall, he has also bolted his back garden fence to this wall and also there is a plank of wood bolted to my house rear wall! (does that make sense) which helps support his fence, and then to make matters worse the 5 wall posts are completely into our garden and over the boundary so that his fence is nice and flush with our wall! and then the cheeky guy has put flags down which go under his fence and a couple of inches past the edge of our house and into our garden!

So then to the other side - the other neighbour, they have built a supporting wall around there garden so that they can have it flattened (the gardens have an incline) which is a good idea, she has built this wall on the boundary line so I suppose half of it is into our garden - not the end of the world and I dont think this is a relationship breaker, but then the fence built on top of the wall has its 4 or 5 posts into our garden and they are secured into concrete!

I wanted to get the garden flattened - got a friend round, he said it couldn't really be done as next doors fence posts would end up not in the ground - would have to build another supporting wall way into our garden (am aware we need to build a supporting wall anyway) when really I should be able to build right up to the boundary line (which technically I can't build right up to the line as her wall is half over anyway - and thats if we got the posts removed!)

Sounds straight forward - so I spoke to the rude sales office, they inform me that they gave permission to the neighbours for all this to be done whilst they were still the 'owners' of the house! and we can't do anything about it - other than not sign for the house (next week), but it really is our dream home :(

Has anybody any ideas?

Thanks
Gemma
(sorry its so long)

Def run away, this is so dodgy. And get an independent solicitor, and make a complaint about the current one who should be acting in your interests.

On a side note betold are you selling your house? We are about to buy one matching your exact description! I wish there was a side return but oh well.

Netguru I don't know if you're read all of the thread, or are skim reading but taking your example:

I have two telephone poles and an electric pole in my garden. Should I not have bought the house? I could have chosen not to of course but I could not have got them moved because I didn't like the arrangement.

The OPs issue is:
I was purchasing a house and we're about to sign the contracts. However, driving by it recently, I noticed there are now two new telephone poles and an electric pole in my (future) garden. I was told nothing about this! The developer says he's given the phone and electric company permission to do this and it happens all the time. He's refusing to lower the price of the house. M y solicitor (who was recommended by the seller) says she can't do anything about it, as we're not the owners yet, and won't be able to do anything about it after the purchase, as we would have bought as seen.

But in those circumstances Wine the OP would be in the same situation. Buy the house with the telephone poles and electric poles or don't buy it. Possibly with a discount if negotiable. Her options would be as they are here. Buy the house as is or don't, try for a discount but of you aren't happy walk away.

And new builds aren't exactly unique. Aren't there any others on the development.

Sorry but if you build a fence, the fence posts remain in YOUR boundary, not your neighbours. Most places mark out the boundary wall with chain link or whatever in order to show exactly where that boundary is. You can't just build a bloody fence that is flush to your side and into your neighbours!

Even if this was 'standard practice' it would make sense to have one side of fence posts in your garden and one in the next neighbours and so on, so everyone got a fence but not 2 people getting M's of extra garden while you lose out due to both fences.

I would definitely not sign, this is not normal by any means and if they haven't had problems with it before, I would say they are bluffing and just trying to push the blame.

We walked away on e, we'd bought off plan and was happily making plans when we saw the actual house. The back garden had a 10 drop at the end with a wall which the local kids had made into a goal. The houses were detached but so close together yiu could your your neighbours wall.

We lost a few hundred quid but it was better than buying the house as it was no longer "perfect" for us.

doobledootch we knew what Contented meant. That is the whole point. The neighbours are in the wrong, they are making for "frosty relations" why should the OP give in so as to not piss off the wrong doer in the first place?

Take no notice of netguru. She is talking bollocks. You do not sound highly strung . You sound upset that someone is spoiling your enjoyment of buying your home. Perfectly reasonable.

Gemma Your mistake is in thinking that Persimmon are a decent honourable company and that they will treat you like you treat them and others. They won't - they will do anything they can to flog you a house at as much money as they can for them. And even if the people at the top say that they need to be honourable, the sales people are there on the ground with targets and they just want to get you to sign for as much money as they can possibly screw out of you.

It might be worth talking to Trading Standards and seeing what they say.

It might also be worth talking to the local council's building department and see what they say regarding the fence locations etc so that when you talk to them again, you can say that 'the council says it's not common practice' - or 'only done by cheapskate builders' - or whatever they say -just by saying that you ahve spoken to the council it will show that you are not to be messed with, they won't like their name being brought up in a bad light at the council.

With regard to your solicitor - I'd ask her (by email to keep a paper trail) - who exactly she is working for - you or Persimmon - as at the moment you don't feel she is working to get the best deal for you or providing you with helpful advice that you are asking her for. So effectively you are questioning her professional ethics and ability to do her job (which you seem to be implying on here - ignore if I have that wrong). Again - she won't like this and it should make her buck up her ideas - if Persimmon have paid half her fees or something so she works for both of you then she can't be impartial which is really important on something like this - so I'd be reporting her to whoever it is that oversees the legal profession. Maybe ask in legal for help in specifically dealing with your solicitor and being able to ask the right questions to ensure you either get the best from her or for her to prove that she isn't actually working on your best interests and so you can report her.

I bought a flat from developers many years ago - they changed the spec so that the fully fitted kitchen that was supposed to have everything in was lower spec and didn't have a dishwasher in, cupboards that were supposed to be in bedrooms didn't have enough doors or doorhandles, lots of the common areas were much lower quality than they were supposed to be, I was over 3 months late moving in - and instead of being honest and saying it was going to be at least another month or two or three, they kept saying 'next week' and 'you have to be here to sign at the time or else you'll lose your deposit' etc - which meant that I wasn't able to visit dp who was living abroad at the time, which was all a real pain. They definitely weren't interested in me or sorting problems out or helping undo their chaos. And from others that I know that have bought new builds - particularly from the big companies (there are the odd few that have bought from one or two man bands that are much better about service) - they see you as a walking cashbag and they have built the house as a means to extract as much money from you as possible - they have not built a house to be a nice home to a nice family to be lived in and be happy ever after.

WOW -thanks for all the comments, good and bad :/

LittleBearPad, NetGuru, Fidgetpie - I take your comments on board, but just to explain:-

I NEED TO ERECT A SECOND 'FENCE' (SUPPORTING WALL) so that I can flatten the garden - its on a harsh incline and about 50% of all other properties on our row have decided to flatten have had to build retaining walls. To do this right now would mean losing land - SIMPLE, the neighbours fences are on MY LAND so the wall would have to come further into the garden.

IF I DECIDED NOT TO FLATTEN THE GROUND - then I wouldn't need/want a second fence, I understand that, but my neighbours fence is still completely into my garden - built on our land, so I will be paying for land that will no longer be mine - I SHOULD ACCEPT THIS? AND THIS IS RIGHT?

Second fences are usually only erected if you want a particular finish etc - both our neighbours fences (regardless of being on my land) have the 'rough' side towards me - post edges etc are not very child friendly for my 2 year old and I might prefer to build a second fence which is smooth - although I accept this is not the end of the world. BUT, IT SHOULD BE NOTED that is they wanted they could paint the fence facing me 'bright pink' etc - slim chance but still possible.

SURELY IT WOULD HAVE MADE SENSE TO BUILD THE FENCE CENTRALLY - half and half perhaps - it would still be on my grounds - half way over, but I could sort of accept this as reasonable - am not a bad neighbour! this would be 'reasonable' behavior, not the entire fence in our land! you wouldn't want to live next door to me because am up tight? I wouldn't (and my husband wouldn't) ever be and have never been noisy/unreasonable neighbours and made any unreasonable demands to anyone! but if your think you should be able to build on your neighbours land and your neighbour do nothing about it - of if they challange you they are UP TIGHT! then your sir / madam are a plonker.

I except I cant walk around my house - it seems quite standard practice, fine. LET ME TELL YOU THIS - a criminal wants to break into my neighbours house - he/she kicks the gate down which is connected to my house, it a very well built gate and something has to give - my wall, cracks in the wall internally appear etc etc. The criminal does his thing and is never caught. Act of criminality - my problem! simple (I know insurance would cover) but if the neighbour didn't attach to my wall it wouldn't have effected me at all.
The garden fence - same thing - high winds blow it down, it takes half my wall with it as its bolted to it (wouldn't harm neighbours house as its not connected to his!) - ACT OF GOD, my problem! you only have to google it - it does happen. BUT I SHOULD JUST ACCEPT IT AS RIGHT?

II understand the 'walk away' - there are plenty more etc, but there aren't. I don't know how people get to work etc but we choose this house because it is ideally located for us both to get to work - we only have one car so public transport has to be used - we can't live just 'anywhere' and there are no new developments within an acceptable travel/commute distance. Buy second hand - of course we may have to resort to this - but then we miss out on the help to buy scheme which we have had to use just to get on the property ladder in the first place!
There are no more houses (that we can afford) on the land that are available - so options limited.

Walking away is the obvious answer - and thank you to all who have suggested it, - it is the simple answer, but the question was really about finding out if people thought we had a chance of getting this corrected etc and if we had a 'leg to stand on' etc. I have taken all comments on board and we are currently making a challenge as to the position of the fences - being completely on our land. We are under the impression now that we can't do anything about them screwing into the house so this is going to have to be a compromise I guess.

You don't have to fully walk away though, you might find they have another home on the same plot that you can take.

The building of the fences should NOT be on your land, in years of living in various houses I have never heard anything like it.

The not walking around the house I think is the only bit were you ABU, because actually that is very normal.

Yeah - we accept we can't walk all the way around, wish I had never wrote it! every house in our 'budget' on this development is the same, its no issue - I was just interested to see if its 'normal'. I guess we sort of thought - 'have they run out of room' or something and decided they had to take our bit of land, that was all. Its no problem - and if our neighbour didn't have the cheek to build his fence completely on our land then am sure it would be no issue in the future if we needed access.

Persimmon own the house until it is sold.

By allowing the builders to erect the fence/gate and attaching to another property, they have given permission for the builder to drill into the wall.

I totally get that the neighbours are in the wrong, however, they clearly don't think they are, they didn't put the fence up the builders did.

Now the new potential owner of the middle house has issues, and as I said upthread, OP you should walk away. Not just for the gates/fences issue but the children kicking their football against the fence.

How many people on this thread have bought a brand new house/lived in one? I have. And Persimmon ones too.

The issue with cramming as many houses onto an estate as possible means that the crappy little 1m wide path down the side of the house creates problems when you go to erect a fence because the fence post cause issues. Where I live all the new builds "share" a fence so no-one owns it.

I also know of several people with double fences because what one person likes as a fence is not necessarily what the neighbour does and trying to match in 3 fences when you share them with 3 different people can be a nightmare.

And the other issue is this, if the OP buys the house she is buying "as seen" which means any issue she raises with the neighbours about moving the fence will be met with clear piss off. If she decides to try to move the fence the neighbour can ring the police and she can be done for criminal damage as she is touching something that doesn't belong to her.

It does become a case of who has the biggest balls, it doesn't come down to law and ownership.

Honestly, have a wander over to gardenlaw to see how arsey people can get about fences/boundaries/rights of way. And some of them have been going on for years and years. I have been following garden law for the last 9 years. And some fights are still going.

It isn't about fighting for that bit of land, it is how deranged your neighbour is and how much stuff they will do to retaliate. Seriously, look at gardenlaw forum.

I have no idea if this is true... but surely once you take ownership you can tell the neighbour to remove the gate that is bolted to your house?

Sorry took me forever to write the above and hadn't seen your update. I have had fence posts attached to garage walls/house walls and even when the fence panels come down the wall never gets damaged as the post remains attached.

The thing is will you really be happy if you moved into this house?

No because consent has already been given by the previous owner.

God it's mighty complicated isn't it!

Thanks contentedsidewinder, appreciate your comments.
I think perhaps our 'balls' would be bigger if we had A - more money, and B - a plan if we did walk away.

I don't know a great deal about the law. But I'd say Persimmon homes were in the wrong to allow people to do this. And I'd like to know how far up the chain of command permission was sought. Was it just a case of the people in the office saying oh go ahead the new people won't mind and hoped they wouldn't.

I agree with contacting Trading Standards. Because this drilling into your wall isn't usually the norm I wouldn't have thought and all these things weren't pointed out to you before you paid the deposit and had the surveys done. I'd say Persimmon homes are massively in the wrong here and you have a good case to get all your money back plus extra for the inconvenience. And just because previous owners give permission for xyz doesn't always mean the new owners can't overturn this.

Simple observation, if the fence is on your land it's your fence and you can remove it. You have to give them back the panels though.

Fence posts should be freestanding always so that when pressure is put on it such as wind or weight, it doesn't damage the wall, the post goes instead.

If the house is on a very steep slope you need double strength retaining walls and drainage behind it.

The builder of the fence has to put the posts on their side with the facing round the neighbours side. This is so that the can maintain it and also means neighbours don't attach things to it or climb plants up it.

But you really want this house don't you...

if you really want to move in then you should focus on getting to know the neighbours, discussing things openly with them and referring to gardenlaw.co.uk. Getting a qualified garden designer will also help and give you a lovely garden along with some gravitas when you speak to the neighbours.

If you go in all guns blazing you could be setting yourself up for a very difficult relationship with your neighbours.

I thought you could get help to buy on any property now, not just new ones?

I seriously doubt that if the gate were to blow down or be damaged the wall would be damaged. Bricks are pretty strong.

Have you asked Persimmon for a discount? What value do you ascribe to the lost land?

Brick supporting walls are designed to take pressure vertically via gravity. Bricks are strong but the mortar that holds them together is weak. A brick pillar is specially built to take that kind of pressure but the side of a house isn't built like that.

But unless your neighbour has claimed you land for himself legally then you can do what you like with it. Most neighbours would be far happier to have a good brick wall than a fence though and I'm sure yours would if you spoke to them.

Thanks for all the replies.

"Fence posts should be freestanding always so that when pressure is put on it such as wind or weight, it doesn't damage the wall, the post goes instead." thats quite interesting, how would they maintain 'there' fences without trespassing (we would give permission of course, but still) and, if we build a brick wall right up to there posts then surely they will never be able to maintain them - suggesting they are wrong, who knows.

We aren't going in all guns blazing - hence speaking on here for advice, we have no intention of upsetting the neighbours if it can be avoided but we still feel we are in the right and surely any reasonable person (the neighbours) will clearly be able to see this.

Gemma - the Access to Neighbouring Land Act 1992 governs situations where in order for an individual to maintain their own property they need access onto the neighbour's land. They could get a court order giving them permission. However, you would hope you could agree a course of action amicably as neighbours rather than resorting to that.

unrealhousewife NO, that is not correct, if I put a fence on your land it is still my fence, I own it. Same as if I parked a car on your drive you can't just take it.

If you started to remove the fence and then they called the police then you are touching something that wasn't paid for by you. Usually the police attend, tell you to stop touching the fence and then tell you it is a civil matter and you should pursue it through the courts. You better have very very deep pockets.

Or the neighbour just reinstates the fence exactly where you removed it from. Like I said, who has the biggest balls.

Plus that view of the best side of the fence to the neighbour to allow you to maintain it went out years ago, along with neighbourly love and civility.

Look I don't want to out myself but I know a lot about boundaries, and disputes and fences. Quite frankly it is a living hell. My advice is don't buy the house if you are going to do anything about the fence position.

It is all well and good solicitors spouting off about boundaries but they aren't the ones living next to the person you are about to piss off. I can honestly see the comments now from both neighbours, oooh yes we were all very happy until they moved in next door.

It gets very territorial on new build estates, who was first in, who lives in the Rochester in the corner (name of style of house) etc

The childish behaviour of some adults would stun you, from car parking, to watching you in the garden for hours on end from a bedroom window, to deliberate noise making, name calling, even involving children.

It is why we chose this house, no neighbours either side we are on a weird angle to the rest of the street. Bliss.

You can't really go ahead unless Persimmon replace the fences and the gates properly otherwise you're in for no end of trouble. The problem with that is the neighbours are going to be pissed off with you for ever.
I've seen the damage a gate that was drilled into a wall has done when it was left open during a storm. It was not pretty.

I can't see anyway forward but to back out and try and get your deposit back.