Compulsory religion? Can it be avoided?

[Agame]

Dear Mums… my DD and I just moved to Fife, Scotland from Texas, where she went to a British private school with no religious instruction at all, just academic subjects, arts, and fun. She’s been at St Leonards in St Andrews for two weeks. She’s five and in Year 1. She came home singing some Christian hymn and asking what the words meant. This is a shocker for me. I know St L is a great school, but iI don’t like Christian teaching happening behind my back at her school. It says nothing about Christian stuff being taught or infused into the curriculum on their website or any of their materials. What can or should I do? I’m not religious and I do not believe that school is where religion should be taught. There are many religions and many varieties of each. I believe it’s a personal and/or family decision. I’m taken aback to be learning now that religious instruction is compulsory in state schools in Scotland, and seems hard to avoid even in independent schools. Should I write a letter to the head of the school? Do I have any rights here? Are any schools simply secular private schools that leave religion out of the school day? Thank you!

This is a school in SCOTLAND. There are (as usual) lots of people piling in to talk about England as if things are just the same and they're not. No point in, for example, complaining to the DfE who do not exist here.

Anyway. Non-denominational Primary schools in Scotland are broadly Christian in ethos too but I have not come across one which does daily worship. Weekly assembly yes, sometimes the local Minister will come along, talk about being nice to each other, sharing, respecting difference or similar. Things you'd find it really hard to object to. All religions looked at as part of the curriculum, one of my kids favourite things was learning about Holi and getting to chuck paint about. Nativity plays as standard, singing hymns but these are usually the more modern hymns which refer to God in general terms rather than in a christian-specific way.

@Agame you are not going to find your American style education in Scotland as it does not exist. Your options are to remove your child from private and send her to a local state primary, try another private school although that might involve considerable travel, or educate her at home. Write a letter to the Head if you wish but it won't make any difference.

I don't think anyone becomes particularly indoctrinated by school hymns. At least not by the religious element, maybe they do program us all to be able to take part in a mass singalong at the drop of a hat.

You make it sound like she is being forced to submit to the holy spirit in some kind of cultish ritual all day, every day, rather than just learning some songs that happen to be about christianity. You do know that some of the great requiems and religious music was written by atheists, don't you?

Maybe you should just explain the words she doesn't understand and expand her vocabulary?

For many of us who don't have religion in our daily lives it's quite a shock to find out how much religion is pushed on our kids in school.

It is often possible to opt out of religious observance (assemblies, church trips etc) but some schools make it difficult and no one provides info on it so you will need to ask the school how to do it. Resist being drawn into a discussion about why because, as you see here, people don't approve.
My daughters were withdrawn at primary and sat in the library with another couple of atheists and some other faiths.
In secondary they attended assembly much to their dismay but were opted out of church trips - I just sent an email saying 'will not be attending due to our beliefs' and I never had an issue.

You may need to prepare to deal with a certain amount of bullying from Christian kids who seem to be offended when they find out. Don't ask me why they care!

And yes we started in Scottish state primary and moved to Scottish private secondary

You'll have a hard job finding someone less religious than I am but I still loved cracking out a rendition of 'dance dance wherever you may be' in assembly with my pals when I was 5!

My son was Joseph in his school nativity, he's also now, at 13, fully aware of the world's religions and guess what? He doesn't practice any of them! It's just made him more sympathetic to other peoples beliefs, customs and cultures and I think you'd be a strange one to think that isn't a good idea!

It's in a city named after a saint, do you think everyone who lives there is a Christian.

OP There is no separation of state and church in the UK. In England you can request that your child sits out of RE lessons / assemblies I don't know if it is the same in Scotland.

If you are here long term your DD will probably have to take an RE GCSE

You will find some useful information at the National Secular Society

www.secularism.org.uk/

Nonsense. My kids have had 17 years of education between them and it's definitely not a daily thing.

Also, laws are entirely different in different parts of the UK.

I'm an atheist and I'm actually quite surprised about how many people are getting worked up about OP not wanting her daughter to participate in acts of worship - I guess I would have assumed it was something most people just shrugged their shoulders and went along with, rather than hotly defending. Maybe it's because she's come from the US and people feel like it's an attack on some kind of mythical British culture?

I actually remember at my CofE primary school feeling quite pissed off when I realised that we'd all been indoctrinated. It was in year 6 and my friends and I had all been taught the Lord's prayer in assembly and we couldn't remember some of it so we asked the teacher and although he didn't say, something about his attitude (and the fact that he didn't really know) made us realise that he didn't believe in it, and that probably most of our teachers didn't.

Anyway, I still think OP would be best off just sending her DD to a local state primary, where it's highly unlikely they'll do much in the way of Christian worship (from what I have seen locally), and if they do, she can opt out.

Well the clue was in the name. Also generally the British are more Conservative about Christianity which I understand is very different from Texas. Will you be objecting to any any other aspects of British culture such as the subjects taught in history lessons?

Don’t be daft! You’re living in a Christian country! Both my DDs went to church schools but we were not religious. They’ve not been indoctrinated by singing hymns or pretending to pray.

That’s what’s supposed to happen but schools get around this in myriad ways.
Celebration assembly, singing assembly, class assembly

On this topic people always attack anyone trying to opt out. What surprises me is the atheists who weigh in on the side of religious indoctrination!

Live and let live - some of us don't like the religious stuff in schools and that's just fine. We are not telling anyone else how to raise their kids.

The one consolation is that this stuff only succeeds in irritating children not indoctrinating them once they are old enough to discuss it at home.

Scottish state primary schools can be very religious. Ours used to get the minister in and he managed to convince the class (P2) that they were going to be put in prison and not let out unless they became Christians. Turned out he had told them the story of the conversion of St Paul. Seen through the eyes of a seven year old religion can be a confusing thing.

The clue might be in the name. St Leonard's.

@sashh No, I’m explaining that in the US, a school named after Christian saint is highly likely to have an affiliation to a branch of Christianity. That’s the cultural norm where I live in the US and I think it’s likely to be similar in Texas, where the OP is from.

Make sense?

Right on both counts. I have chosen not to teach my five year old about Christianity yet as I am not Christian, or any religion. Religion believes he in the church, mosque, or temple.

@Agame Well, this school teaches it so I guess you’ll have to move your child elsewhere. 🤷

@Soontobe60 Not true in Scotland. The law in Scotland is that there has to be religious observation 6 times a year.

@BruFord I explained earlier that the school is named after a Christian's saint because it is on the site of a previous college of St Andrews University, the others being St Mary's and St Salvators. The town of St Andrews used to be a revered ecclesiastical site and a place of pilgrimage and there are many religious names around but it's now best known for golf and the university rather than religion.

@ApolloandDaphne Yes, the point I’m making is that an American would make certain assumptions about a school named after a Christian saint.

I suspect that this isn’t a genuine post.

Ah I see.

Exactly. I listen to mostly 90s gangsta rap. I've yet to conduct a drive by.

If you are here long term your DD will probably have to take an RE GCSE

Err, no. No GCSEs in Scotland.

Nothing in the schools material or website or during our tour or interview made this clear. I was blind sided by my child coming home from school singing a song about Jesus.