Compulsory religion? Can it be avoided?

[Agame]

Dear Mums… my DD and I just moved to Fife, Scotland from Texas, where she went to a British private school with no religious instruction at all, just academic subjects, arts, and fun. She’s been at St Leonards in St Andrews for two weeks. She’s five and in Year 1. She came home singing some Christian hymn and asking what the words meant. This is a shocker for me. I know St L is a great school, but iI don’t like Christian teaching happening behind my back at her school. It says nothing about Christian stuff being taught or infused into the curriculum on their website or any of their materials. What can or should I do? I’m not religious and I do not believe that school is where religion should be taught. There are many religions and many varieties of each. I believe it’s a personal and/or family decision. I’m taken aback to be learning now that religious instruction is compulsory in state schools in Scotland, and seems hard to avoid even in independent schools. Should I write a letter to the head of the school? Do I have any rights here? Are any schools simply secular private schools that leave religion out of the school day? Thank you!

All schools will teach about religion but most will give equal weight to explain the basics behind 3-5 major world religions but this would usually (except at schools with an overtly Christian mission) be careful not to tell the children what to believe, but only that "some people" believe xyz.

The law is that state schools must have a daily assembly of some kind (though it doesn't have to be "whole school") which should be "mainly of a broadly Christian character" which some schools make as secular as possible by interpreting "mainly" as meaning 51% and "broadly Christian" as meaning anything that generally promotes being kind to each other and practicing forgiveness and prioritising the needs of the less fortunate. Other schools will be more enthusiastically Christian. In state schools all parents have a right to insist their children are withdrawn from any overtly religious element but the school has no obligation to make any alternative activity available so exercising this right often leaves the child feeling excluded and bored.

Private schools can set their own policies for how religious or unreligious they are and have no obligation to allow exceptions. Any school founded more than 60 years ago is likely to have been founded with a defined position on religious practice included in their articles of foundation.

The school will certainly not change their policies and practice for you but may agree to let your child go to sit and read in the book corner/library during activities that you object to.

Many of us grew up learning hymns, a few bible stories, taking part in a nativity play at Christmas plus the obligatory ‘For what we are about to receive may the lord make us truly thankful’ before some really disgusting school dinners.
We didn’t learn about any other of the major religions or beliefs, which was a shame really whereas children nowadays do.
I came from a strongly non-religious background and never felt I was being indoctrinated or coerced into believing any of it. You can tell your daughter that it is all just stories.

I’d start looking for a different school realistically, but if hymns are shocking to you but you will find it the standard in most schools. st Leonard’s is a Christian ethos school as per their admissions handout as others have said the name also gives it away.

They might, but usually attending assembly is compulsory. If they don't like it, they have to leave the school. I've worked in inde religious schools, and the Jewish, Muslim and non faith kids still had to go to Chapel each morning. The school was firm.

They provided prayer rooms early etc, but chapel was compulsory.

Otherwise you end up with dozens of kids opting out.

You clearly didn't do your research into UK education OP 🤦‍♀️

I also don't see the big deal with religion being taught - if you don't believe, I'm sure you can put across alternative viewpoints in the hours of the week your child isn't at school.

My mum.is very religious, I went to church schools and I am not religious. I don't think singing some hymns and saying a prayer is a guaranteed brain washing from which there's no way back.

Daily worship is compulsory in all British state schools - it has to be broadly Christian. (Not sure about private but I suspect many follow suit).

In primary schools this tends to be a hymn / song and a short prayer. Secondary don't tend to do hymns and prayers but will often have assemblies focused on community and charity.

All primary schools will tend to do various religious celebrations but almost definitely Christmas activities, Easter and harvest festival.

This is seperate to RE which is part of the curriculum and which teaches about different religions and beliefs (including humanism and atheism).

You can withdraw your child from collective worship and / or RE (although not sure why you would want to withdraw from RE as it is not instruction but knowledge).

However, I would caution against it as it may make your child feel left out.

If it's any consolation - my youngest DD is staunchly atheist (even more so than me and DH) - when we moved she had the choice between a small church school with a prayer corner and the bigger primary in the town. She chose the church school, always joined in the singing, nativity, carol concerts etc (her choice) and it did absolutely nothing to sway her beliefs - if anything it made her even more atheist!

The UK is not an overtly religious nation despite being a formally Christian nation (much less religious than the supposedly secular USA) and most of us being brought up singing hymns hasn't changed that.

Having a good hymn sing along has actually turned into a bit of a culture night out for adults (Google Primary School Bangers by Jason Partridge and look up the Jason Manford segment relating to it) - but certainly not for worship 🤣

There is a daily act of broadly Christian worship in all UK schools. IME it usually consists of a song and/or a clumsily phrased instruction to close your eyes and thank you god if you have one or think about how lucky you are/ consider the poor people at war.
It's a bit ridiculous but also not hugely meaningful and you can ask for her to be taken out of you don't like it.
RE is more on the lines of Jewish people believe this, Hindu people believe that etc, so a bit more worthwhile.
ETA my kids have been in this system for 10 years and are both atheists, their friends all still have their parents religions or lack thereof.

I brought up my daughter with no religion and she went to non-denominational state schools. She still picked up Christian songs and prayers because, it's just what happens in the UK. She's 18 now and is still figuring out if God exists or not, as is her right, but she's not affected in the slightest by knowing the first verse of We Three Kings etc.

I teach my child that there are many different beliefs and many people who choose not to believe in a Christian or (insert your religion here) god. And there are pagan ways of life that don’t follow centrally organized doctrinal religious forms. That schools teach “about” religions other than Christianity but require Christian prayer and song “others” Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism, etc.

Unfortunately OP you really can't get round it. There isn't anything in the UK like the version of secularism in US public schools. (Or that's supposed to be!) You will have to ask what version of RE is taught as there are multiple ways to do it.

You do actually find some staunch secularists who aren't happy with the requirements. Agreed though that I would expect a school with a saint's name, in either country, to have some sort of Christian affiliation. The only real option for those of us who aren't keen on Christianity is another religious faith.

Exactly. My daughter went to a British private school in the US where she got an amazing education and religious teaching had nothing to do with it. It was a cosmopolitan place where Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, local people, and British children all got on fine and left the more personal, spiritual teachings to parents and our respective faiths. The option not to teach religion to our children was therefore also available. It’s a huge assumption that all children are Christian or should be.

Just move her to a different school! The school are not going to change their entire ethos on the say-so of one mum whose child has been there for five minutes.

That schools teach “about” religions other than Christianity but require Christian prayer and song “others” Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Buddhism, etc.

Take this up with the DfE. Do let us know how you get on, won't you?

I'm a staunch atheist but, my god (pun intended), I love Christmas carols. We Three Kings is an absolute banger.

Agree, Festival of 9 is my favourite part of the whole year yet I am staunch atheist too

Speak to the school. As it is a private school you don't have any rights except to remove her.

At a state school.you would have the right to remove her from assemblies, the nativity play etc but think about whether that is best for her. These things are largely cultural rather than pupils being expected to believe. Part of the same school experience with the others, and very few bother much about what it 'means'. When it comes to religion the vast majority continue exactly as they would without having taken part, the home influence is far greater.

Assemblies are trying to encourage everyone to be thoughtful about other people, nativity plays are about a school play that has lots of roles for all the children and songs everyone knows. Plus parents and grand parents get misty eyed with nostalgia. It isn't evangelism, let's face it, the majority of teachers aren't religious either.

Christianity has been part of life in the UK for a good few years and knowing about it will give you daughter a good overview of our history and culture , good and bad.
I was against sending my dc to a denominational school because I'm an atheist, but actually the one that now goes to one has got a lot from it, including discussions on why we don't follow a religion as a family.
I have an American friend who sent her dc to her closest school, a CofE school with a rainbow in the logo. She thought it was an LGBT thing and not a reference the flood.

Good luck with fighting that one ..

It's part of British Values to accept and tolerate religious beliefs. And BV is compulsory to be interwoven in school life.

You didn't do your research about education in the UK, and didn't even bother reading the joining literature if a school you chose to send your child to.

It's a huge assumption that (a) that is what is being taught or (b) anyone cares about your opinion of the British (private) education system. Just because something in Texas was described as a "British school" didnt make it British - I bought some American pancakes last week and by God they were nothing like American pancakes. You are assuming though that singing a hymn will make a school less cosmopolitan, or the children more prejudiced. That is not so. You are, however, perfectly at liberty to remove your child and home-school them so that the only opinion they ever hear about anything is yours.

Kindly, she didn’t go to a British school- she went to a school
in Texas that teaches the ( presumably) English national curriculum rather than the local curriculum. International schools often don’t bear that much resemblance to schools in the country of origin because local education legislation will apply and they will adapt what they offer in the light of that and what local parents want. Eg English prep schools typically have sport every afternoon- that would never happen in “British” schools in HK as parents wouldn’t want it and sport in HK is club rather than school focused. Expecting schools in the country of origin to resemble the international schools is a bit naive.

I’m not sure on the rules for private schools, but in the UK generally, there’s a rule that says all schools should provide some sort of regular “collective worship” aka assemblies with hymns / prayers. It means basically all junior age schools have a form of Christianity attached. Though in actual lessons, RE, will cover all religions in an equal way (“some people believe…”)

This whole business is wildly annoying to many of us who aren’t religious in the slightest. And it does differ from the US where religion is separated from schools (though seems to be a bigger deal in general). I don’t know about private school rules but basically it’s not really possible to find a school that doesn’t have hymns etc in assemblies. I believe it is possible to withdraw your child from this though? BUT, bear in mind that the UK generally has a pretty low level of religion, and also people of plenty of other faiths, and we’ve all been through these schools. Most kids just sing along and let it wash over them, unless the families are also religious. We don’t take it very seriously. We just said “yes, some people believe that, I don’t and neither does dad”.

So basically - yes it’s infuriating. No it’s not easily avoided by moving to another school. It doesn’t tend to result in us actually becoming Christians - we just ignore it, our society is getting less and less religious. You can withdraw from this but I don’t think many do and she might feel upset at being excluded.

This. I went to a church school because it was the only one. My parents didn't believe and I grew up learning about Christianity ( early 70s so don't recall any other religions being mentioned until secondary school) but knowing that my father's opinion was that it was all fairy stories. When I became a teacher I taught in many C of E primary schools . We had assembly and did all the usual curriculum stuff of comparative religions. I spent 18 years at school, studied RE as part of my teacher training degree and then worked in various Church schools for 20 years. I still remain entirely without a faith. Your daughter isn't going to be negatively affected by being in a lovely private school in St Andrews.

Me too. Love a Cathedral, love church music, love belting out a hymn. My father, a life long atheist loved Carol's from Kings on the BBC on Christmas eve . I don't believe in any of it. I don't feel a need to fall to my knees and declare a sudden conversion . Its part of the culture here. Accept it or home school

What you are describing here is more of a British international school. They may be fee paying I.e. private but it’s not really the same thing as a private/independent school in the UK. This will be a bit of a culture shock coming from the US.?

You options here are a) suck it up b) remove her from any parts of collective worship you are unhappy with c) home educate d) find an international school ie. American International school nearby if there is one.

You could try writing to or complaining to the Head. This is likely to get you absolutely nowhere though.