When will VAT legal challenge outcome become known?

[kitz90]

Does anyone know the answer to this?

(I’m to pay the first invoice with VAT on it and pondering what will happen if the legal case is successful).

Badenoch is more towards the right than Rishi was, if she is smart she will appeal to Reform voters.
yes - Labour got a majority in seats, but when you look at the numbers, their votes were the same or even marginally lower than the previous election.
Due to Tory behaviour for 4 years, Reform split the Tory vote.
Labour will ruin this country, hence next government will be one without Labour.

I’ve spoken with several Labour voters who are appalled at how this is being implemented.

But apart from coming in quicker than people thought, isn't it coming in like Labour said it would? This isn't something they snuck in after the election. I don't see how you could vote for the 2024 Labour manifesto, and since then decide you find this part of it "appalling".

Labour promised that send would be excluded, but they have written in such a narrow way that many send children are in fact affected. Many parents of send children, whether at state or private, find the treatment of these children appalling.

what’s the single sex one?

Children with EHCPs are exempt, this is a narrow definition. However, I think the SEN argument is being overblown somewhat as it’s one of the best chances people think they have of a breakthrough.

Many children with SEN would have been in the private system anyway. They are not in all the private system because they have SEN. I’m DDs school, which starts aged 2, almost all of the children with SEN were at the school from age 2 or 3 and have been diagnosed as they got older. In many if not most cases, their needs are not severe and could be adequately met in a state environment with a bit of tutoring outside maybe.

I’m not sure that really qualifies anyone for a VAT exemption, and it would be extremely hard to determine on what grounds someone’s needs were high enough (hence the ECHP threshold).

Also - I suspect the govt knows that there would be an explosion in people seeking a SEN diagnosis if this were to be widened. Does it also include children with MH needs eg anxiety even if no formal SEN identified… which is often also linked?

The question being - how would you determine a threshold?

Children with EHCPs are only exempt where the EHCP names a particular independent school as being the most appropriate to meet that child’s SEN. That is very narrow. They are exempt because the naming of the school obliges the LA to pay the fees. Putting VAT in those fees would be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

There will be many children with SEN and an EHCP who do not have a named school. but nonetheless attend private school.

Not all children with an EHCP are exempt - it is only in situations where the LA are responsible for fees that there is an exemption. Many EHCPs are not worth the paper they are written on in terms of actually translating into access to needed services and accommodations, and it is difficult, time consuming and often expensive to obtain a good one.

you clearly have no experience with send if you think ‘tutoring outside’ is a suitable adjustment, even with mild send. I have two children with send - one clear before moving to private (and the reason we moved to private) and one of the ‘mild’ variety only identified after joining the Indy.

with the first child our choice was self funding private or 1)stick with state and spend years in pursuit of evaluations and ultimately an EHCP (which would most certainly qualify for) 2)hope the EHCP was accurate and enforceable and pay for educational consultants and lawyers to ensure we get the best possible 3)fight for the services we were entitled to but not receiving(because no one gets what they are promised let alone what they need without a fight) and 4) hope my child wasn’t utterly broken by the time we got her what she needed (even as what she needs continues to evolve due to age and educational neglect). There is no question she has additional needs and we are saving the state ££££ by funding our own way, but we will now be taxed for doing so.

second child, though ‘mild’ is still just as in need of intervention. In state she probably wouldn’t have been flagged for spld until she was nearing the end of primary, at which point the implications for her ultimate academic attainment would be severely impacted. Children with dyslexia and other splds are generally failed in state as they are not severe enough to warrant meaningful resources, even though these children could see the biggest benefit from focused support and timely intervention.

what should the threshold be? I have no idea. I just know that Labour promised that vulnerable children would not be affected, and that is clearly not a promise they have delivered on. While they fuck over children like mine they have also done fuck all to address the SEND crisis - they don’t even have a whiff of a brain fart for how they might start to tackle issues in SEND provision.

Labour promised that send would be excluded

The manifesto just said it wouldn't apply to children with an EHCP, which I think is what has happened?

I just don't see how someone who voted for it could now think it's awful when it's doing what they said it would. It's not like the WFA which wasn't in the manifesto and I can definitely understand why someone who voted Labour would find that appalling.

ETA - ok the EHCP needs to specify the school, which wasn’t spelled out the manifesto. I’m just surprised you know several Labour voters who are now appalled at the way this is being done, when this specific issue of EHCP not naming the school seems to be the only part of it that wasn’t known. They thought the policy was alright except for this little bit which is enough to turn them from a Labour voter to not?

Given the economic views this morning on R4, which are currently being overshadowed by Musk story, Labour will struggle

It’s dire and the analyst pointed out with Truss she was replaced quickly

We have years to go

Well, that detail is a pretty fucking important distinction. Some of these people who are now upset didn’t really understand how EHCPs work, some do, but all naively took Labour at their word when they claimed SEND children in private would be protected from the impacts. In fact we have a situation in an adjacent LA where over the summer the LA seems to have unilaterally re-written / rejected all mainstream private EHCPs. Those parents were left with no school place for their child weeks before a new year was meant to begin, and even if those parents were able to self fund while they appealed would also be on the hook for VAT from Jan. it is a shambles and a fucking disgrace - it is pretty hard not to be appalled if you know a child affected, regardless of your party affiliation and previous voting preference.

It might not be the one thing that turns a labour voter (though really no labour voters need to vote differently for them to lose the next election) but taken alongside the economic outlook it does add to the general air of incompetence that has many questioning their choice this summer.

Agreed. Even the MC private school parent friends voted Labour, knowing that they’d pay more in fees, and can see there’s a huge mess to tackle.
The one friend moaning a bit about VAT in fees works in the NHS, so despite the moaning voted Labour and would do again. She can see there’s bigger picture, as many of us can.

Did your and their bigger picture include higher borrowing costs and stagflation?

Have a listen to what the choices are for Reeves, on R4. Most likely being lower public spending

How does that help state schools?

6% of people moaning about the loss of a tax break isn’t going to overthrow a government, particularly as the majority wouldn’t be your typical Tory voter either.
I’ve just done my self assessment for HMRC, do au want to pay ALL that tax? Preferably not, but I do because that’s how society works regardless of whether or not I agree with how the money is spent.

Stop using incorrect language. An agreed exemption isn't a tax break. There is a legal definition of tax break and VAT exemption on education isn't it!

Some of you need to take a step back and realise that Labour is traditionally a protector of the working classes and any vulnerable minorities. That is an unwritten rule.
So for them to literally go for some disabled children, vulnerable old people and small time farmers who have broken a back - not acceptable! Whilst at the same time, sleaze, extras for the middle class civil service and pandering to champagne socialists (which is essentially what the education tax is) - it is rewriting the rule book and thus has resulted in loss of confidence. It is not that difficult to understand.

Taxing education is completely anomalous, introducing half way through a school year is utterly bonkers and then making the poorer kids in the system especially with SEND is political suicide. But keep ignoring what we have all been stating for years.
NHS/Education in this country is NOT FAIR, it is a postcode lottery. Some people are getting an excellent service, others really are not! Some kids with SEND needs that are lower than others are getting 80k thrown their way, others are in crisis homeschooled. You really cannot go and tax some of these people. It makes zero sense! They know the homeschooling and SEND figures and the crisis, ignorance is no defence. It is down right malicious.

And this is the fault of a new government do you think, or the one in charge for 14 years that. Fought this county to its knees?

That’s not the issue we’re facing. The belief in Labour long term is priced into higher borrowing by the markets. There is no political switch and they’re aware of that

The markets are reacting to the higher prices and lower growth

Your willingness to pay more tax is covering Labour’s limiting policies and higher borrowing costs

It means lower public spending, so how does that help state schools

Exactly @twistyizzy - “the tax break” lie/gaslighting just adds insult to injury. How stupid do these politicians assume the electorate is? They are not - especially now that there is social media and widespread communication between invidividual voters. People are not that naive. You cannot lie and manipulate with simple catch phrases anymore because there is a conversation going on between thousands of voters and the media now.

Yes markets are reacting to the situation now.

Listen to analysts on higher prices and lower growth post budget

On R4 about 7.30 today

I’m sure the media will pick it up more when Musk furore passes

6% of the electorate, is just 6% and the majority of the 94% aren’t really invested in the loss of a tax break for the wealthy on an optional choice.
Thats the reality.

Your belief in Labour long term is costing more rn in terms of borrowing costs

And stagflation impacts everyone not 6%

6 per cent of the electorate? Really after the millions of stories of kids with SEND? I doubt it, it’s cumulative - people are already utterly fed up with Labour. Attacking some minorities (whilst defending other minorities and being called out about that specifically) - you can see it all exploding in the press right now in their faces.

As a politician, cardinal rule is to never underestimate the importance of every single vote. To go piss off millions of people deliberately with policies that don’t even raise significant amounts all whilst stating hard decisions need to be made AND simultaneously crashing the economy and costing the country 100 times more than any amounts raised- well that is digging your own grave!

Really after the millions of stories of kids with SEND?

Millions?

Yes @SheilaFentiman - the SEND crisis is all over the press and impacting Council funding and thereby social care budgets too for the elderly - it’s a massive issue.

What is Labour going to do about the working class vote?
Pandering to the champagne socialist middle class whilst simultaneously annoying the remaining middle classes and the elite business owners etc - chasing the wrong votes! You can state you are a tool makers son but your whole cabinet being as middle class as they come, it doesn’t work.

But… this thread is about the VAT policy and less than a million children (c620k) attend private school in total. You and the PP know full well that the 6% mentioned by
Liddle referred to this.

hey-ho

www.isc.co.uk/research/