Children at private school, still wonder if it is the right thing though.

[whizzylala]

Hello,
I hope this is not an annoying thread for people.
After much deliberation we decided to go for prep for my DD who is now in Yr1 - she was way ahead at reception entry and the primary school teacher wanted her to miss out on reception and go straight to Yr 1 as she said she would be bored - she is a feb birthday and I did not feel this was a good solution, so opted to go private.
DS joined her at the school in the foundation class this september.
I love the school, they are both doing well and are very happy but I just get these niggles about whether it is worth all the money. We can afford the fees at the moment with a few dacrifices, but I do just think about all that money and what else we could do with it one day!
All our friends children are at primaries (not the one ours would go to) and there children sound equally happy. I know it is not all about academic achievement and part of what I love about their school is so many great facilities and opportunities. My DD is also beginning to level out with her peers in many areas of her learning now - good job she stayed in the right class.
Any thoughts, I just feel a bit confused right now! (Would be applying for reception for DS this week so I think that is what has got me thinking!)
Thanks for reading.
Whiz

Hi seeker - I've not spoken to the head yet. I didn't want his own teacher to think I'd gone behind her back and it to have a detrimental effect on her relationship with my son. It's parent's evening next week and I want to try to sort things out with the teacher and then if no joy I will approach head.

If you can afford it, then surely it is better to put your spare cash towards your DCs' education rather than frittering it away on holidays and other material things.

That's definitely our view.

BTW,

I pulled my three younger kids out of state primary last year. The school was nice and did a good job of civilising feral kids, but the lessons were incredibly dull.

They did endless 'numeracy' and 'literacy' lessons and very little of anything else.

There was little opportunity for creativity. Even when they wrote a story, they couldn't just do it from the heart - no they had to plan it first, and sometimes that was all they would do. They wouldn't even get round to doing the actual writing. And to crown it all, the children 'marked' each other's work.

Now that my kids are outside of that environment, they are really blossoming and enthusiastic about school. They tell me about their days, which is something that didn't happen before.

alien10 I really feel for you. I do get the impression that the entire focus is on bringing up the bottom so everyone can jump through the next hoop and the boxes can be ticked. Are teachers rewarded for furthering outstanding children? Probably not, probably just for getting the lower achievers up. But a good school should 'add value' to every child IMO.

Sadly, I do think the focus is on bringing up the bottom in state schools. Yes important but surely everyone needs to be stretched.

Our DSs Prep does follow the national curriculum for the less able children but has this year agreed (after parental pressure) to put on special classes for more able children to stretch them beyond national curriculum. I am sure a Primary woudl nt do that. DS1 was bored last year and at a Primary he woud be very bored I am sure. Before those special classes were put on, we were wondering why on earth we were paying if all DS1 was getting was what the local Catholic Primary delivered.

Added value is crucial in justfying the fees for Prep for us.

The government/educationalists should realise that as a society yes, it is good not to leave anyone behind. But you also need the bright ones to be stretched so they can innovate and create. And not get bored and turn into troublemakers. My DS1 was moved up a year at his prep school for exactly this reason - he was sept birthday, big, bright, finishing his work first and distracting everyone else. When he was really challenged and interested by the work he calmed down.

We took ours out of an outstanding state primary this year and I think those who've been through private from day one maybe don't realise the alternative when considering value for money.
I like the fact that my children read to a qualified member of staff every day instead of a Mum volunteer with her own agenda.

I also believe once the foundation of a private primary education has been laid that will either see them through grammar and help them get the most from that or secure them a bursary at another private school.

I am always mildly amused by the % of "more able" and even "outstanding" children that mumsnetters have. It does make me wonder where all the average children are!

I agree Seeker.

I think that these gifted children disappear at some point between the age of 4 and 18.

When I was at primary school (all three of them state schools) there was a thing for putting bright children up a year.

However, when I got to Cambridge, I never met a single student who had been put up a year or labelled gifted. Where had they all gone? The brightest student I knew (top every year in Physics) was so bright that no teacher could have stretched him (with the possible exception of Einstein).

With respect to all these children who need to be stretched...I wouldn't want any child to be bored at school. However, I think that a bit of cruising, in a mediocre environment isn't as bad as people think...

It's only primary education after all! And, storming ahead at the age of 7 doesn't mean that you are going to be able to cope with degree level maths at an 'elite' university.

I think that most academic achievement comes from self motivation and whether your brain is bright enough, not whether you are in a class of 30 of 18.

So, private education definitely not worth it! Save the money for holidays and enjoying your children. (That's if you ever see them between violin lessons, ballet, swimming and Kumon maths).

Gosh, I'm so cynical...but I just enjoy watching my children play and learning from their play. I believe the more I let them play now, the more they will be able to develop their own learning desires and abilities.

I am also fascinated by the anecdotage about clever children in state schools. It doesn't matter how much people like me jump up and down and talk about the differentiated work in my son's extremely "bog standard" primary school, the received wisdom on this forum is that state school children are not allowed to forge ahead, that they are held back (not sure how one would do this) and there is never any interesting work in state classrooms.

Builde and Seeker, I love you. I read threads on Mumsnet and it's always about "stretching" children to achieve their absolute highest level. Why would you want to do that to a five-year-old anyway? What's wrong with achieving a comfortable level? And everybody always has a very bright child who needs special attention.
My ds in y1 seems to be doing very well in a bog standard primary. I think he's being stretched far enough, thanks, and seems to be exhausted by all he's learning. Maybe he's just not as bright as everyone's else's...

I've tried holding my children back, but I can't stop them from progressing. Despite my best efforts, they haven't become vegetables.

However, my current obsession with Mumsnet is definitely holding me back. I need to do some work and not waste my state education and subsequent Cambridge ed.

What would my lecturers think?

Although did succeed in telling my dd the wrong spelling for Magic. I told her it had a j in the middle!

Well guys I'm sure you wouldn't be so patronising about people wanting the best for their kids if your child had read to their teacher once since September, are "learning to count and recognise numbers up to 20" in year 1.

Perhaps all those "gifted" 4 year olds have disapeared into average land because they weren't given the opportunity to grow.

I grew up as a disadvantaged child and my parents did not have any interest in my education. I left school at 16 with 2 grade c gcse's, to work in numerous dead end jobs. I had to do a day's work and then go to college to improve my job prospects. I do not want my son to do the same!!

I think it's unfair to say it's patronising of us. I'm sorry you had a substandard education. And I'm sorry you feel that your child is not getting the education they deserve. However, I think the vast majority of children at state primaries are getting a good education and all this talk of giftedness and stretching and the sort of levels children are pushed to/attain at private schools creates a false sense of disappointment and entitlement that is a disservice to all.
And everyone believing their child is exceptionally bright and gifted, ditto.

DD goes to a state nursery that is the the finest example of an educational establishment I've seen/experienced in my long years as a parent (DS1 is in upper sixth). It's caring, efficient, fun, interesting, innovative and children of multi-millionaires attend alongside children in care and children from council housing and all the bits in-between. All the children and staff get along brilliantly and are genuinely fond of one another. It is also multi-cultural and multi-faith.

The nurseries I visited at the snooty end of town had the ubiquitous wall of "Nursery does Mondrian" and examples of 4 year olds' handwriting. So uninspiring and dull.

My father's potential was never recognised at (state) school, this is why I get so mad about it. As a teenager he was given an IQ test and when it was really high they said 'Oh well, it's probably an error'. He left at 16 and no-one ever suggested he do anything different. He subsequently took himself through university - much later - and became an economics lecturer, but still feels bitter about the way he was written off.

Of course, if he had had supportive parents who took him to Kumon maths and violin lessons or even played with him rather than abandoning him completely/dying in childbirth he would have been OK. But he didn't and it's those kids/families I worry might lose out.

PS Builde re going up a year, maybe all the 'gifted' ones were bright enough to realise they could fit in another year off before university?

I did know a girl at Oxford who went up at 16.

Seeker - I agree entirely. IME some private schools coast on the back of a compliant intake and the extra tuition that the DC get from their parents. On the other hand, I don't know what's worse: the parents with kids in private schools slagging off state schools or the same parents wanting to change state schools.

Oh and by the way... My DD is extremely bright; really I am not just imagining this like the other MNs

I didn't mean to be patronizing. I just think it's really important to clear up obvious misunderstandings and mistakes, like -

"In a state school, (I know I work in one)the children in the class all have to achieve at the same level, meaning if your child is zooming ahead they are either held back or asked to help those who are struggling, they cannot move ahead."

This is just not true, and I think could be very worrying for the 93% of parents who use state education!

Alien 10 -

I think that if your child is only being expected to recognise numbers up to 20 in year 1, then that is a substandard education.

But that is not happening in any of the state schools around us.

My dd is in year 1 in an unpopular state school (it was given notice to improve a few years ago) and they are busy adding 10s, 5s and 2s together. Her teacher reads with her each week and they are learning to do joined up writing.

Their reading books are stretching - one of the children in her class has almost gone through the entire reading scheme - and I have nothing to complain about.

I can't ask for more. (It's also free!)

I would also agree that parents may have experienced very sub-standard education.

Both my parents went to grammar schools and the education they both received was very poor, especially when you think that these schools only had to educate 20% of the population.

Any my mother always says that in her primary school all they ever did was arithmetic in pounds, shillings and pence. If you 'got-it' straight away, you then had to survive another few years of the same, and if you never 'got-it', then no-one ever gave you any help.

However, schools are very different 1- 2 generations on. So, best to look properly at what is being offered now.

I have 3 DC - DD is doing very well, DS#2 is erm 'improving' just now, and DS#1 is in the middle. Just like the three bears And all went to the same primary school. They have all receieved an education that has suited them. G&T for DD, extra reading help for DS#1 and small seperate classes for DS#2 every morning. I think there is only so much 'stretching' and 'squashing' a child can do. Any reasonable school will help a child fulfill their potential.

"In a state school, (I know I work in one)the children in the class all have to achieve at the same level, meaning if your child is zooming ahead they are either held back or asked to help those who are struggling, they cannot move ahead."

This is true in large part for the majority of state schools. The DCSF is pulling its hair out trying to remedy it. They started the G&T program because of this! And yet the problem persists. Bright children may be allowed to move a little bit ahead but teachers have several incentives to keep them from progressing too far. For one, the smaller the range, the easier the class is to teach. Further, once some children have reached the max level for their Key Stage the teacher has more to gain by ignoring them at the expense of pulling up those who are behind as ABetaDad says. There are other "incentives". But they all work in subtle ways, there isn't a hard bound manual that says "ignore the bright ones".

In other words, children are held back. And I speak from my experiences as the father of a DS and DD who are definitely above average.

I ma constantly amazed by this myth. It may be true that some very gifted children do not get the opportunity to zoom ahead as fast as they can, but the managing of gifted children is a different subject. A very important subject - but not what we are talking about here.

What we are talking about here is the managing of a "normal" range of ability. For example, in my ds's year 4 class, the children's abilities in literacy range from (this is a snapshot from last Wednesday - produced for a governor's meeting) 1a to 4b/a. All these children are doing work appropriate to thier ability. To read posters on here, people would get the impression that they would all be working at 1a, or at best at level 3, which is what is expected by the end of year 4. I would be amazed if anyone could actually produce evidence that this is happening in a school which is not classified by OFSTED "unsatisfactory". If it is, then the evidence should be sent immediately to the Governors - it needs to be dealt with as a matter of urgency.

We see numerous posts by parents whose DCs have experienced this - that's "evidence" enough.

I ma constantly amazed by this myth.
Why do you believe it's a myth? Because it doesn't happen in your school?