Children at private school, still wonder if it is the right thing though.

[whizzylala]

Hello,
I hope this is not an annoying thread for people.
After much deliberation we decided to go for prep for my DD who is now in Yr1 - she was way ahead at reception entry and the primary school teacher wanted her to miss out on reception and go straight to Yr 1 as she said she would be bored - she is a feb birthday and I did not feel this was a good solution, so opted to go private.
DS joined her at the school in the foundation class this september.
I love the school, they are both doing well and are very happy but I just get these niggles about whether it is worth all the money. We can afford the fees at the moment with a few dacrifices, but I do just think about all that money and what else we could do with it one day!
All our friends children are at primaries (not the one ours would go to) and there children sound equally happy. I know it is not all about academic achievement and part of what I love about their school is so many great facilities and opportunities. My DD is also beginning to level out with her peers in many areas of her learning now - good job she stayed in the right class.
Any thoughts, I just feel a bit confused right now! (Would be applying for reception for DS this week so I think that is what has got me thinking!)
Thanks for reading.
Whiz

The extra curricular activities are a non argument really. Yes, there are lots more at private schools - and so there should be, considering the fees! If your child is at a state school, you pay for, say, riding or music lessons separately.

Seeker, The National Curriculum dictates what is learnt and at what stage in a childs education, not the school. G&T is still a very new idea, now that the Governement and educational advisors realise that a one size fits all educational plan does not and is not working. Teachers have to follow the NC in state schools and in most lessons G&T does not apply, these are extra sessions maybe once, twice a fortnight but not regular, everyday sessions, most schools could not afford it!
My school has G&T in maths, English and MFL and it occurs twice a term as finances restrict it.
Back to the OP, I had my son (y6) start out in state in an outstanding OFSTED rated school, it wasnt for us, mainly down to bullying issues and we moved him out, DH and I are both state educated and I'm not against state schools. I work in an outstanding one, where 75% of the pupils leave with GCSE grades A*-C
But for what you pay in private you do have to be 100% happy with what you are getting

Just because state schools follow the National Curriculum, it doesn't mean that-

"In a state school, (I know I work in one)the children in the class all have to achieve at the same level, meaning if your child is zooming ahead they are either held back or asked to help those who are struggling, they cannot move ahead."

If if did, how could my ds, who is bright but definitely not "g&t' be writing his own detective story (working at a high level 4 for writing)) while his friend (working towards level 3) is thinking up captions for a series of pre-printed pictures? And how could my friend's daughter be working with fractions while HER friend is working on addition of 3 digit numbers?

And this is at a primary school in a deprived area (no leafy suburbs!) which scraped a 'good at it's last OFSTED.

My ds used to go to an older class for his extension maths, so no finances involved. I suspect that different schools take different approaches. Certainly I don't know of any primaries that don't do group work (aka streaming) for maths and literacy. I was a very advanced reader as a small child, and absolutely hated having to read through all the reading scheme before being allowed to move to proper books (because that was the way it was done) but it didn't hold me back, because I read whatever I liked at home in any case (three older siblings so lots of books available). Some things children need to be stretched in, and others make very little difference IMO.

Me and my siblings went to state primary followed by selective independent, and the children that came from state schools (apart from not having learned any French) had no particular difficulties. I've never quite seen that private primary was value for money, however I agree with LadyMuck, it's all about being able to find the right school for your child, and if paying gives you more choice then that's certainly a benefit.

Thinking there is some benefit to making "contacts" at prep is a little laughable.

I'm with Nooka, I think the value of going private for primary is probably overrated (especially since it's only the fees over the £5k that is allotted to every state school pupil that's going to make any difference if you see what I mean...). In our case, there would have been many additional financial costs incurred by having to drive to a private school instead of walking, not to mention the emotional costs (ie me shouting a lot) of such a journey.
If you like the school and you can afford it with no sacrifice then maybe it is worth it for you. However, if there was any risk that you'd not be able to afford secondary having started on this route, then maybe you'd regret not saving your money. You could also argue that maybe starting a university fund for your dcs or a fund to give them a deposit for housing in later life might have more value, but that's a choice that's difficult to make now.

I wrote the word "maybe" a lot didn't I?

On the thread of admissions, my perception of Cambridge admissions was that they didn't care what kind of schools people went to. Infact, unless the school was famous (Eton, Cheltenham Ladies College etc.) they probably couldn't even tell what kind of school the pupils they were interviewing had gone to.

However, I would imagine that a child who was an immigrant, who had been taken into care, or had gone to a very poor school and still got A*s would impress the admissions people more than a privately educated child.

Cambridge wants the brightest and most self-motivated students; it doesn't just want people who've been to the 'right' schools.

It's shocking that American Universities are more interested in the school someone went to (which is actually nothing to do with them, and only to do with their parents) than what the person has done themselves.

As a Cambridge graduate I have vague Oxbridge aspirations for my children (although, it is hard work, so the desire has to come from them) so I chose a state school for my children.

Even if they experience some poor teaching at some point, at least I will have saved myself 240,000 pounds. And, I experienced some poor teaching but still got all the As I needed. I think that how you do comes from within and isn't much to do with your school.

There are parents who consciously pick and choose along the way to minimise cost and maximise chances of getting into oxbridge and other top unis:

1. state primary (supplemented with extra curricular music, sport and tutoring in Y5 and Y6)

1. private secondary (for excellent gcse results and confidence building e.g. debating societies, drama etc etc)

1. state sixth form (because coming from state sector may have its advantages for oxbridge entry)

Having had two at independent my third is at a state nursery. I have been quite taken aback at the difference. it is very pleasant and happy but the lack of expectation is what you notice. My son can already read, the teachers know this, we have talked about it several times, but he has not been put on a reading scheme. It is not something they 'do yet' whereas my other two were given reading books as soon as they were ready.

I once read that children have a 'time window', when they are interested in reading and you have to take advantage of it. My son's window is being ignored. Whereas at an independent school they got all excited when a child forged ahead and their attitude was 'how can we make the most of this', at the state it's more 'oh that's nice' and apathy. I am doing reading with him at home (have to buy all the reading schemes myself, cost a fortune) so he doesn't get bored but what about the kid whose parent doesn't have time?

As I am not paying fees, there is no way I feel I can go in say 'please could you do reading with my son' whereas when you pay you at least feel you have a bit of leverage.

There is a big difference between nursery and school - either state or private. I wouldn't expect any child to be on a 'reading scheme' at nursery - that's mot what it is for.

Hi newweeknewname, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think as long as state primaries are reasonably good then you can always pay for extra curriculum stuff outside of school. Secondary (11-16) is where the investment in private really pays off, as even the best state schools rarely have an atmosphere of championing learning and other achievments as well as much higher standards of discipline.

I went to a Sixth Form college for A Levels (less than 10 years ago - I'm still young) and all of us who went there did far better at A Level (due to specialist teachers and the very adult atmosphere) than peers from school who were sent to private schools for the last two years. In my opinion, 16 year olds are ready to leave school (even where 6th forms are less school like) and take on proper adult learning at a college.

Actually, ime, I think you are taking quite a risk as taking a DC from a 'spoon-feeding' private and sending them into the 'maw' of a state 6th form.

It has been my experience that THAT'S where it can all 'go wrong'. OK, who's to say it wouldn't have anyway? But to my eyes, the expense of private pays dividends at A level so why risk sending your DCs into a school environment of which they have no knowledge or experience to effectively sink or swim at 16 having had them relatively cossetted and minded for the past 12 years of their education?

You'd be better off saving your 'private primary' cash and using it at 6th form!

Seeker, I don't understand. Why can a nursery not be for reading if a child is ready for reading? That seems very prescriptive, especially as this is a nursery linked to a primary school and my son is already officially reception age - he is young for the year though, so doesn't move to school till January.

The nursery department at the independent school my other two children went to didn't have any hard and fast rules - you started reading when you were ready.

Because nurseries are run by nursery workers not teachers. I am sure that if a child was interested in reading a good nursery worker would sit with him or her and read books together, but I would not expect anyone but a teacher to "put a child on a reading scheme". but there is no way I would want my nursery age child to have formal lessons of any sort.

Nursery habits have changed dramatically in the last few years, I was also surprised how much less formal reading my last child (5 now) did at nursery/preschool compared to the first and second (9 and 8 now). There's a totally different early years curriculum, dd3 was at a different nursery to her big sisters but it was the curriculum which made the difference.

All my 3 went to private and then state nurseries and preschools, we saw no real difference between the private nursery and state nursery in what they learned, they all followed the same curriculum at the same time, but there was a very big difference between dd1 and dd2's experiences and dd3's less formal experience just 3 years on.

My children both went to the village primary, which was good but not outstanding, and did very well when we switched them in year 6 to private schools. I'm glad we didn't spend the money on the fees, tbh.

The only area which I did feel they'd missed out on was French: those early years when they really learn a lot without doing anything formal. The odd French club one lunchtime a week and occasional lessons weren't enough. They did have Spanish lessons, but that dwindled after a few years.

Ah OK, I hadn't realised nursery workers aren't fully-fledged teachers. I think every child is different. We do read normal books but so many of them are full of difficult words. What he loves about the reading scheme is he can read every single word and pick up a book and read it to himself. We just have the books lying around at home, whereas bizarrely the picture books at nursery are far harder for a child to read.

I also think a four year old can sit and read a book with you for five minutes on the sofa without it counting as 'formal lessons'

At DD's (private) school, the 2-3 nursery is staffed by nursery workers and a teacher, the 3-4 'preschool' has teachers and TAs.

These are teachers of the sort who let the kids face-paint them and go home thus bedaubed, not hothousers though!

Fennel - I just saw your post, that's interesting and makes sense.

GrimmaTheNome - I think that's what I was expecting, having gone private before and never having known anything different.

Anyway, back to the OP... perhaps the question is, do you have a better use for the money?

My DH sometimes, after reading the FT, opines that the best place we can put any spare money is 'between DDs ears'.

She's in year 6 and we are happy with the choice of school, even though it was initially somewhat forced on us by the admissions policies of the local schools. It has done well for her academically and otherwise.

Lots of interesting comments!
Well, I do extra hours at present to pay for the fees, at the moment no, there is no other use for the money particularly although I am quite sure I could find one. Of course their education is paramount to me but I am beginning to think after reading all these that maybe it would be better to save it for later on. I do love their school and would be sad if we moved them becasue it just seems to suit them both perfectly but I hopefully would love their new school too if that were to be the case. I have realised that although we don't have a great choice of schools near as we are in the sticks, we do have a few village primaries which are probably perfectly adequate. I hate the thought of all the hoop jumping that goes on from the NC pint of view though.
Well I have applied for DS Yr R place anyway just in case! And I know the class my DD would be in is not full.....
Whizzy

Hi I'm having a tough time at the moment with my son's education at state school please do not rush into taking your ds out of their school. My son is yr 1 at the local primary with 30 in his class. He is in a group of 3 who are currently ahead academically and none of them are being pushed beyond the NC. They get no attention from the teacher who has admitted to me that she needs the time freeing up for the under acheivers! At a recent group open evening they advised their target is to get 75% of the children on grade 1a by the end of the year.

Coffeeaddict my son too could read in the nursery which was attached to the state school he attends now but did not receive any reading time when brought to their attention. I bought the Oxford Reading Tree series.

His reception teacher informed me he would be taken out from the class with other capable kids to receive additional g & t lessons but this never happened I'm sure they just tell you something to shut you up when you confront them.

I cannot afford private education but am at my whit's end about what to do for the best.

alien10 - what does the head teacher say?

Sofaqueen:

I went to an Ivy League Uni for my PhD and only came back to UK last year.

I've got to say you're completely mistaken. Acutally an A* from a middle of the road comp would count a LOT more at the Ivy League I went to than one from a posh private school. In fact, they provide financial aid grants (not loans) and specifically target schools that do not traditionally send children to Ivies - you gain a lot of kudos if you perform well at a poorly performing school.

They've started addressing the issue of APs (which wouldn't be an issue here with A levels) and ECAs (whihc you could supply). But certainly your child would not be downgraded arriving with good A levels and SATS but from a school that's not recgonised. At least not at the Ivy League (one of the top 3 in the country) that I went to (and I didn't go to a top uni for my undergrad either btw but still got onto the phd program with a full 4 year fellowship). I think your preconceptions are outdated.