unconditional parents- how do you deal with reward systems in school??

[thisisyesterday]

ds1 is due to start school in september and on my big list of "things to worry about" is the kind of reward systems they may (or may not) use.

I have heard about schools using reward charts for good behaviour, and in some cases even having things like a smiley face chart on the wall where a child who "misbehaves" gets an unhappy face stuck up. or gets their name moved from a sunshine to a grey cloud.

I was just wondering how you deal with this really??? do your kids just accept that school have a different way of dealing with things? do you feel pressured to do it at home too?

To me, it is part of the growing up and becoming independent process to learn that different people use different systems.

I have never been keen on stickers or charts or anything like that and have never used them at home. Still, my children have not been traumatised by finding a different system working in school. And I have never felt under pressure to change my ways to fit in with the school either. School and home are such different places anyway. Different situation and they also have to learn and accept that people have different personalities- their class teacher is not going to be a clone of me (she may even be nicer).

Besides, even different families have different rules: when they go and play at their friend's house they may have to keep toys much tidier than we do at home- but then again, they may find they are allowed to eat their meal in front of the television!

Children are usually quite adaptable ime. And as they grow, it becomes easier to relinquish control over every detail of the day.

I think dealing with 30 lively children you're not related to is a bit different from dealing with your own at home. At home you can spend a lot of time discussing why they need to do something, or even whether they have to do whatever it is at all. At school, there are times when they do just have to sit still and listen. And I really don't see a problem with giving them a sticker if they manage to do it, so long as my child (who has never had a problem with 'sitting nicely on the carpet') has to do more to get the sticker than his friend, who is a fidget and finds it INCREDIBLY hard to sit still. 5 minutes is an achievement for him - and that achievement needs to be recognized. It would not be an achievement for my ds! However, a few sentences of really neat writing WOULD be an achievement for him, and that should be rewarded.

Interesting thread - I thought people would be objecting to the public nature of the smiley face etc system. I'm not one for reward charts or stickers either - but DS's school uses stickers very sensibly IMO - Ds has got stickers for good counting/good behaviour (can't remember quite why!)/and because I put in his reading book about how hard he'd tried reading at home with him. I.e. all quite flexible/individually done IYSWIM.

I remember when my dd was in year 1, they all came out with stickers saying "money problems " stuck to their jumpers. The parents were inclined to agree!

In terms of UP I would say as most others that school / home are different and children adjust to that.

But I don't like the reward schemes at school.

Dd's school has two 'reward' schemes. One is the star which has everyone's name on. If they misbehave and ignore an initial warning their name is moved off the star onto the 'behaviour ladder' (which has 'amusing' pictures of teachers faces looking increasingly 'comically' cross as you go down the ladder) - to reach the bottom rung of the behaviour ladder would mean going to the headmaster's office. This rarely happens.

The other is a thing called the flower. If you behave well you get put onto a petal. If you are exceptional you get put in the middle of the flower.

While I can see the point of reinforcing good behaviour and reprimanding bad behaviour by these methods I've had huge problems with it with dd - she rarely gets on the flower despite being almost all the time very amenable and nicely behaved. (parents evening the teacher said she's always polite and quiet) Because she's shy she gets over-looked.

IME both of these devices are only productive for the kids at extreme ends of the spectrum. The super-good ones, who have the confidence to make their super-goodness visible, are always in the middle of the flower and never off the star. The ones who misbehave more or find it hard to focus get the most from the scheme because they get put on the flower more readily as their good behaviour needs to be encouraged more and they get off the star the most as they misbehave the most.

All the kids who float around in the middle or are quiet get very little out of it at all. Dd's always saying to me 'z gets his name on the flower every time he sits still but I sit still every day and I never get my name on it.' Because z finds it hard to sit still he gets noticed when he does it whereas dd doesn't. Great for z but demoralising for dd.

I would even go so far as to say that it's demotivated dd. She doesn't see the point in aiming higher when she's never rewarded and, seemingly to her, other children are all the time.

A rubbish scheme. I hate it.

ssd -- uncondional parenting

Imaginary friend, that sounds like a crap system to me -- have you tried talking about it with the school?

I mentioned it at last parents' evening that dd felt she was 'invisble' (her expression - 'it's like I'm invisible') but nothing seems to have changed. I think the class sizes are large and the teachers stretched and they probably perceive that dd seems happy and motivated so they don't have to worry about her.

ImaginaryFriend, the way you have outlined the problem here seems to get to the heart of the matter --perhaps you need to try again?

i do UP and don't like school reward systems, same as i cringe when at other people's houses and dd is told if she eats all her dinner she'll get a treat...eugh. HOWEVER, i understand teachers don't have the capacity to UP or perhaps UT a bunch of kids, particularly when the vast majority will be used to treats/stickers etc for 'good' behaviour. didn't alfie do a UP book about schools..something about A* rewards or something.

at work i do my best to apply kohn thinking with my team. it works. good job really..no bonuses this year.

anyway..in response, i would just talk to dd about the school reward system, get her to think what it's there for etc..and i'd probably encourage her to apply to be on the school council..

sorry if this is a hijack but I am intrigued by the UP concept- can someone give me an example?

To take an example from this morning- how would UP-ers deal with 5 YO child that will not put on shoes and is late for school?

I will try again, at the next parents' evening, probably mid-next term. The teacher is lovely, just clearly over-stretched and needing to focus on the ones that most obviously need attention. Unfortunately just because a quieter child seems to be 'getting along fine' the teacher may not pick up on what they're really feeling like as they're not as demonstrative.

I laugh when ds 1 comes running out of school and his teacher says 'Oh, ds has a sticker today!!' ds couldn't gie two hoots about the bloomin' sticker runs, hags and says 'I thried hard at schoo today, are you proud?' (which we, of course, reply, we are so proud you tried hard!! You seem very proud of yourself!!)

He is so much more motivated by how we feel about him rather than bloody stickers.

I was a teacher and you don't need stickers to motvate children, you need to be able to talk to them, not patronise them, to listen to them (many teachers can't do this) and work with them. You need clear expectations set by the children themselves -how do we want our class to work? What should happen if someone misbehaves? And you need clear snactions so they all know what will happen if they don't behave. I taught very difficult children in difficult circumstances so I didn't have a middle class, well motivated lot of children -though I have taught those too and still didn't use stickers)

sorry for shocking spelling!

omg i only just came back to this thread and it's huge!!!! about to start reading it though so thanks in advance for all the input! lol

mg - in your opinion what would the sanctions be? What would the 'punishment' be if a child didn't behave? I'm trying to think about what alternatives a teacher could have with a large class of different children. I'd love there to be an option but I can't come up with one. The reward chart things seem the kindest method although I hate them for reasons outlined below.

ruddynorah - I agree with the cringing at sticker charts at others houses. I was told yesterday by a mum -my ds has exzemea -that that is how sticker charts started in her house was to get her dd to have her cream put on. Had cream, got a sticker. Her child is a prime example of 'What do I get???' when you ask her to do something. My friend even said that she'd noticed that as soon as the sticker chart gets full her dd stops the desired behaviour. When she asks dd whay she has stopped she says 'beacuse there is no room for anymore stickers' Why don't people realise even when they have evidence in front of them that sticker charts don't actually change behaviour, or they do but in an artifical, short termed way. Long term behaviour changes take place from a willingness from the inside and an enablement by the child to make well though out choices for themselves...

Re the dc not getting their shoes on I would say to ds that that's fine and his choice, but he will get wet/cold feet if he's not ready by the time we leave. Tell him you won't ask again that you'll put his shoes in a a bag and give them to his teacher for him to put on at school. He won't do it again! Ds was taking ages in getting his uniform on so we said a similar thing. Not to be nasty but to let him know that we have to be ready at a certain time otherwise we will be late and if he chooses not to get ready (it's all about choice) then that's his choice but we can't wait around for him everyday. (somedyas there is a reason why he can't and we understand) I have 2 dc to get ready in the mornings and another on the way. He's fine now.

pendulum -- you would explain what would happen if he did not put on his shoes, poss even send him to school without them on (but in his bag)? I'm no expert by the way, am thinking I need to re-read the book. there is a link to it farther up the thread, and there has been much discussion of it on other threads if you want to search.

ok, have mostly read through, and thank you again for all commenting...

f&z, I am very tempted by the thought of home-edding, but there are various aspects (that I won't go into now) that make me think that ds1 would be best off at school. However, it is something that is at the back of my mind and I would have no hesitation at all in taking him out of school should I feel that it is not the right place for him when the time comes.

you know, at the end of the day I just don't think these reward schemes are necessary.
Imaginaryfriend's post explains pretty much exactly why I don't like them. they just do NOT work for a lot of pupils.
I want my son to learn to sit still because that is how he should behave, not because he'll get his name on a frigging flower if he does it.

in my era systems like this were not used in school. and our classes were not full of rowdy children misbehaving and causing trouble. surely a good teacher should be able to command enough respect and find ways of getting children to do as they are asked without having to bribe them??

plus, my problem is not, despite how my op may have come across with them having different ways of doing things in school, but more how, as a parent, I can deal with the conflict between this and home life for ds1. He is a fairly sensitive boy with a great sense of "right" and "wrong". any perceived injustice to himself or others greatly upsets him... and this I believe could be a big problem when in a school situation where people are rewarded for simply doing what they are supposed to do anyway. and those that always behave well get bugger all.

now, obviously until he starts school I will have no idea what kind of reward systems (if any) they put in place. This thread is merely a "just in case" type thing iyswim?
it is great to know though that all schools do not adopt these systems and that there are teachers out there with a more thoughtful attitude

oh and with the shoe thing, we teach by modelling and natural consequences

ie, when dp or I go out, we always wear shoes.

if ds1 refuse to put shoes on that's fine. but he has to deal with the consequences of that. ie, wet/cold feet.

he has done this once and never again lol. there is no punishment, and no reward. he learns directly why it is sensible to put shoes on when going out.
I had taken spare socks and his shoes, so that when he realised this he could choose to put them on

sorry, and to reply to totalchaos's point about the public-ness of the 2smiley face" system, as an example

you are right and it is another reason I hate it.
if a teacher has a problem with ds1's behaviour I would expect her to talk with him and try and sort it out. not name and shame him into behaving.
which, quite frankly, is a horrible way to treat children

We talked about working as a team, looking after each other, helping each other. This was a school that had failed its OFSTED (before I got there!) I had children rolling in the coats, putting shiny things in their mouths, banging heads against my desk not just 'chatting to friends' or not listening.

If you're willing to put in time to help the children change their behaviour and not just have stategies to control them it does work. Yes it takes time...

If my rolling child was rolling that day we would all sit on the carpet and start the lesson, we draw attention to the fact the she was rolling but we would ignore her behaviour whilst stessing that we would really like her to join our lesson. It was her choice...She did after a time. Yes I could have given her a sticker but what about the child that was already doing what they should?? The rolling child had to learn to change her own behaviour with no incentive other than -it's nice to join in with your friends and be part of the lessons.

I could have spent hours with each child, the head banger, the roller and I would never have got anything done! Slowly and surely they changed for the better because they wanted to and they saw it was better to join in rather than be silly in the cloakroom (which was in the classroom)

its not something I had really thought about before DTs started in Sept, then DT1 came home with a certificate for 'good work' which I was ok with, but DT2 didn't get one for ages, which surprised me as she is far more conscientious than DT1, who has been in trouble a couple of times (she lives in her own world, which I think is a lovely place but teacher is not so keen!). On further questioning it seems the certs are not for work but for behaviour, getting changed for PE etc. DT1 has sussed this and plays the system whilst DT2 is just a 'good girl' and gets nothing. I spoke to the teacher about it, as DT2 was confused and sad, teacher then bumped up her stickers and she got her cert so it is behaviour modification that ignores the quiet ones, imo

The problem is that as a parent you can send one child to school with his shoes in a bag, or you can take a child to school in pjyamas - and you can take your time discussing and rationalizing decisions. That is entirely appropriate for family life. If you've got 28 children to get changed for PE, then you just can't. And if they get a move on for a sticker, then I see no harm in it. A lot of school is about learning how to function in a wider community - that is very different from how you function in a family. Not worse or better, just different. An incentive for doing something you don't want to do is no bad thing - maybe I should do the things I have to do because I want to - but I often do them for the money, praise or other reward I get for them!

sorry my post was a bit of a rant just wanted to point out the effect on different types of children really, which having twins allows me to do. I do appreciate that teacher need incentives (I am secondary teacher myself) but I wish they'd at least be honest about them!

btw, you do create confident children with high self esteem that can make decisions for themselves BUT they do like to challenge those around them!!!

Ds 1 said the other day -'I've listened to you mummy, I've heard what you've said, I just think you're wrong...' he's 4.10

At first he seems rude but if you listen to what he says, he's actually disagreeing in a very polite way.