Y6 teacher upsetting DS and he doesn't want to go to school. How would you approach the school,

[Drazzzamba]

Year 6 teacher upsetting DS — how would you approach the school, especially while references are being written?
I’d really appreciate some advice from parents who know the English primary school system from the inside. We moved to the UK for work and are still learning how things are usually handled here.
DS joined his current Catholic state primary towards the end of Year 5. He loved school last year, settled in well and had very good relationships with his teachers. It is a highly rated school in a well-regarded area. There is a new headteacher this academic year.
Since starting Year 6 with a different teacher, he has been coming home very upset, sometimes crying, and increasingly saying he doesn’t want to go to school.
According to him, the teacher frequently shouts at the class and says things along the lines of “I really want to go home” and “I’m tired of you.” He also reports her threatening to write children bad secondary school references because they are badly behaved. She frequently threatens to keep them in at break and sometimes does so.
I appreciate that this is my child’s account, and I haven’t heard the teacher’s perspective. I also don’t think my child is incapable of being irritating or contributing to a difficult situation.
He is academically strong and finds quite a lot of the work easy. He enjoys debating, challenges things and can probably make his boredom rather too obvious. I would not be surprised if there were some eye-rolling. He is also an atheist in a Catholic school and asks questions about religion that may not always be welcome. I can see how the combination could be wearing for a teacher, and I am happy to address any inappropriate behaviour on his part.
However, none of his Year 5 teachers raised concerns about him, and he still has very positive relationships with the other teachers he knows. The change in how he feels about school has been striking, and I’m concerned about his emotional wellbeing if this continues for the rest of the year.
The timing makes me hesitant about how to proceed. He has done well in the grammar school entrance exams so far, with one more exam to go. We are also applying to independent schools as alternatives. They have now requested school references, and I have just paid the school’s reference fee. I assume his current teacher will have some involvement in writing them.
Part of me thinks we should get through this stage of admissions and have the references completed before raising anything. But I’m uncomfortable with waiting if he continues coming home this distressed.
I’m not looking to go in all guns blazing or demand disciplinary action against the teacher. I want to find a constructive way for him to feel happy and comfortable at school again. Ideally, the classroom situation would improve. Otherwise, I would like to explore a move to a parallel Year 6 class, although I don’t yet know whether that would be possible.
For those with experience of this, what would your first steps be?
Would you speak to the teacher first, or request a confidential meeting with the head, given that the concern is about the teacher herself? How would you raise the effect on your child without the conversation immediately becoming defensive? And is moving to a parallel class something schools will realistically consider in these circumstances?
I’d also appreciate honest views on whether the reference situation should affect the timing.
I don’t have many people around me with first-hand experience of navigating English schools, so some real-life parental experience would be very welcome. Thank you.

What’s so astonishing?

I am a parent of a child a similar age to your son OP. I am also a teacher. I had a similar situation with my own child and I went directly to the teacher.

My child has been at the school from the very beginning with excellent reports and feedback since the start, so this sudden change in how the new teacher was making them feel made me quite curious as to what was happening.

I spoke to the teacher and gave her an opportunity to explain why she was coming down so hard on my child. This was at the start of the school year and things have got much better since I inserted myself into the situation. As a teacher I would also welcome this myself.

@Darkdiamond thanks for sharing, your perspective is very much appreciated. We absolutely need to do the same.

Yes, you described our situation very accurately. Our 3+2 choices (3 on the form and 2 I added myself, just in case) were unavailable, so we were left with the only option. We are not the only non-Catholic family at the school, including among the teachers. We're in Greater London.
But again, how is it relevant to my question?

@cantkeepawayforever I can easily see this scene in a wonderful movie, so touching and beautiful. DS annoyed her with questions in various subjects. Sometimes it wasn't pure curiosity; he deliberately debated and challenged her after (or during) she shouted at his friends. I guess that it was his coop strategy, his way of shifting her attention from them.

This sounds very different to a child who is intensely curious and so accidentally pestering with many questions.

This sounds like a child becoming confrontational and purposefully disturbing the class to the point of removal because he is angry at a teacher for taking disruptive children to task.

Your child goaded a teacher. How awful.

It does sound as if your child’s behaviour is, at the very least, exacerbating the situation and so is contributing to his own unhappiness.

This makes it all the more important that you ask for a neutral ‘problem solving’ meeting with the teacher, as the school is unlikely to look at solutions that you might like, such as him moving classes, if his behaviour is perceived as significantly contributing to the issue.

Once his behaviour is fully addressed - which is likely to involve you as well as school emphasising how disruptive he us being and putting things in place to resolve it - then you are on much stronger ground if the teacher’s classroom management approach remains upsetting to him.

However, I would say that the more robust approach towards a large, tricky Y6 class with students who eg answer back is likely to be relatively common, and also not uncommon in most secondary schools from some teachers.

Ok. Deliberately debating and challenging a teacher is what most people would call ‘answering back’, it’s disruptive and your son needs to stop doing this. Purposely asking off-topic or tangential questions is also deliberately disrupting other people’s learning. You say he has moved from a very small school - is it possible that he is taking a while to settle and understand the new rules? It’s a massive change especially if he has gone from big fish in small pond to small fish in big pond. It is to be expected that he will have a different relationship with the teacher as one in a big class than one a small class and needs to learn that he can’t always have their attention and needs to follow the same rules as others. It’s a tricky thing to learn but better now than in y 7.

You say your child is quiet, sensitive and heartbroken but also confidently challenges and goads the teacher? Those two versions don’t align. He needs to concern himself only with his own performance and behaviour, not what is happening to his friends. He needs to keep his head down and get on with his work. Of course request a meeting with the teacher but he does sound like a handful and irritating in a class of 30.

@Bigtrapeze Thank you so much for sharing your story. I'm sure you're a wonderful teacher. I come to a very similar conclusion about the actions on both sides. As the question was mainly about how to approach the school, I didn't mention our discussions with my son. I admit the picture isn't complete without it. To keep the post concise and readable, I also didn't mention the long list of inappropriate remarks and actions from the teacher. Most importantly, she shouts at other kids who don't challenge her with questions. And it simply doesn't stop.

@Smallestshadow I assume, based on your judgment, that you’ve never worked with children. Also, you think children must obey, no matter what happens. Am I right?
I truly don't think so. I believe that adults working with children have their responsibilities, too. Not to mention parents.

@Sandynandy I probably didn’t mention the cause and effect clearly. He started doing it to stop/distract her from shouting at class, including at his friends. Probably not the best strategy, but not the worst, either. She didn’t shout at him before that. Now she does.

I probably didn’t mention the cause and effect clearly. He started annoiyngly question the teacher (at all subjects, not just Religion) to shift her attentionand to stop/distract her from shouting at class, including at his friends. Probably not the best strategy, but not the worst, either. She didn’t shout at him before that. Now she does.

Oh gosh - this was my son all over too. He couldn't bear to see his friends and classmates unjustly punished so would defend them to his own detriment.

In answer to your earlier question, he was refusing school entirely so he came back in on a reduced timetable, only attending the lessons he felt able to and going to the library or head of year's office at other times. The number of lessons increased quite swiftly but there were two teachers (not subjects!) who he never went to again.

Goading is not the right word. My son was the same although he has had his inquisitive, questioning nature pretty much bullied out of him.

My son was an extremely outgoing, confident, inquisitive, popular child, both with teachers and children. But he couldn't bear conflict and he couldn't bear perceived injustice. In a well managed classroom he was a huge asset - teachers would love him as he was happy to debate. In a classroom where the teacher lacked control the levels of conflict were too much and he crumbled at his inability to defend his peers.

He very much gets the conflict avoidance personality type from me. The difference though was that when I was at school there wasn't a problem with controlling the kids.

Actually I do remember probably the only occasion I questioned a teacher. She was an English teacher taking a PE game and umpiring a netball game. She got the rules wrong - I think it was to do with restarts after a goal has been scored. I questioned whether she was right to give the ball to the opposition. She told me off and continued with her incorrect decision. I never questioned again. Should children always keep quiet? Is there no place for debate?
Ditto if the teacher accuses child A of a misdemeanour but child B know it wasn't child A. Perhaps these are similar to the things that OP's son is struggling with.

Yep. Defend or distract. Anything to stop the conflict or unjust accusation.

The teacher was only shouting because children were misbehaving. I’m not sure why your son is trying to defend them.

Is it what they call a “victim blaming”?
When I shout at my children, I know that it is I who could do better. Because I am an adult in a position of power with more experince and able to regulate my emotions hundreds of times better than kids.
When I shout at kids, I apologize and tell that I’ll try explain calmer next time and that they can remind me if I forget it. It is to give them the idea of what the norm is.
Do you shout at your boss/partner/a person in a shop when the do something wrong? why is it normal to shout at kids if they misbehave???

If I was a teacher, I’d probably end up shouting at kids. It’s a reason I would be very unsuited to teaching!

A Child misbehaving isn’t a victim. Your child should keep their nose out. The teacher needs support not another child getting involved.

Oh please. Would your perfect son challenge the teacher had it been a Muslim school? He sounds like a pain in the ass.

@Bubstar he would've been 100% a pain in your perfect ass. I would've been too 🤦🏻‍♀️🤣

@Bubstar children who are shouted at by a person with a power are. But this is not even the topic I asked about. Hence, thank you very much for the unasked judjement and advice.