Y6 teacher upsetting DS and he doesn't want to go to school. How would you approach the school,

[Drazzzamba]

Year 6 teacher upsetting DS — how would you approach the school, especially while references are being written?
I’d really appreciate some advice from parents who know the English primary school system from the inside. We moved to the UK for work and are still learning how things are usually handled here.
DS joined his current Catholic state primary towards the end of Year 5. He loved school last year, settled in well and had very good relationships with his teachers. It is a highly rated school in a well-regarded area. There is a new headteacher this academic year.
Since starting Year 6 with a different teacher, he has been coming home very upset, sometimes crying, and increasingly saying he doesn’t want to go to school.
According to him, the teacher frequently shouts at the class and says things along the lines of “I really want to go home” and “I’m tired of you.” He also reports her threatening to write children bad secondary school references because they are badly behaved. She frequently threatens to keep them in at break and sometimes does so.
I appreciate that this is my child’s account, and I haven’t heard the teacher’s perspective. I also don’t think my child is incapable of being irritating or contributing to a difficult situation.
He is academically strong and finds quite a lot of the work easy. He enjoys debating, challenges things and can probably make his boredom rather too obvious. I would not be surprised if there were some eye-rolling. He is also an atheist in a Catholic school and asks questions about religion that may not always be welcome. I can see how the combination could be wearing for a teacher, and I am happy to address any inappropriate behaviour on his part.
However, none of his Year 5 teachers raised concerns about him, and he still has very positive relationships with the other teachers he knows. The change in how he feels about school has been striking, and I’m concerned about his emotional wellbeing if this continues for the rest of the year.
The timing makes me hesitant about how to proceed. He has done well in the grammar school entrance exams so far, with one more exam to go. We are also applying to independent schools as alternatives. They have now requested school references, and I have just paid the school’s reference fee. I assume his current teacher will have some involvement in writing them.
Part of me thinks we should get through this stage of admissions and have the references completed before raising anything. But I’m uncomfortable with waiting if he continues coming home this distressed.
I’m not looking to go in all guns blazing or demand disciplinary action against the teacher. I want to find a constructive way for him to feel happy and comfortable at school again. Ideally, the classroom situation would improve. Otherwise, I would like to explore a move to a parallel Year 6 class, although I don’t yet know whether that would be possible.
For those with experience of this, what would your first steps be?
Would you speak to the teacher first, or request a confidential meeting with the head, given that the concern is about the teacher herself? How would you raise the effect on your child without the conversation immediately becoming defensive? And is moving to a parallel class something schools will realistically consider in these circumstances?
I’d also appreciate honest views on whether the reference situation should affect the timing.
I don’t have many people around me with first-hand experience of navigating English schools, so some real-life parental experience would be very welcome. Thank you.

I cant answer for most of your post but just wanted to highlight - it does seem that your son is sensitive to classroom dynamics and seeks to withdraw when there is conflict, yet at the same time wants to engage in debate.

My son was like this and suffered enormously in classes where teachers were unable to control the class without resorting to threats and shouting. He became a school refuser. In order to get him back into school he was allowed to miss certain subjects. The school knew why certain lessons were a problem for him (ie it's the teacher) but can't realistically do anything about the teacher. It was "just" a hypersensitivity on the part of my son.

I say this to forewarn you in case your son is the same and to help him to get strategies in place. My son was rather older when this started to become a problem.

We had a similar experience in Year 6. DD was bored out her mind, found the class work entirely repetitive and, quite frankly, lost respect for the teacher and system (the teacher being a generalist often getting things wrong despite being experienced). The teacher shouldn't have been teaching, she herself was worn down by the system too.

We had a meeting with the teacher. My husband, who is the most mild mannered person made me look positively normal. He was incandescent at the teachers attitude and we took it to the Head.

In response,
(1) You have to go to the teacher first. Then the Head. If that doesn't work, the Governors.
(2) Secondary school is a whole new ballgame and DC is thriving.

@Mumofoneandone Oh my, you’ve been through a lot! Are your children homeschooling now? If so, is the in-year procedure fast and straightforward?
I hope I will not need this, but I can easily imagine him very happy at home until Year 7.

@JustMarriedBecca Thank you so much for sharing 🙌
How did it affect your DC after escalating the issue to the Head? Did it help at all?

I couldn't agree more. We had the same situation with DS and when I talked to the teacher she eventually broke down in tears and said how much she was struggling. Which wasn't the intention at all, of course, but we were able to talk openly and gently. It was acknowledged as a tough class and this was her first teaching class after academia, which is where she went back to. And to be very fair, she was the first teacher to spot what turned out to be my son's autism, for which I will be eternally grateful and sent us on the right diagnosis and treatment route.

@oviraptor21 I think you're very accurate. Because he was always listened to by his parents and went to a very tiny school before a normal, large city school, he admits that sometimes feels more upset than pupils who were shouted at.
Most importantly, your example is eye-opening. I never thought there was such an option, even later in school.

Fortunately we found an alternative combined primary and secondary school - my DD for year 7 and my FS for a younger year group.
In year school moves should be relatively straightforward where schools have space.
Ideally I would push for your DS to move classes, to save him further disruption of another school move so soon.

@Octavia64 thus is quite understandable. However, my child is not a trouble maker in common meaning. He is quiet and intelligent but bored and challenges the teacher with logical questions, very often on religion. Once, she, very much annoyed, urgently brought another teacher getting him out in the middle of their class to answer my son's question. For these questions and debates she gets my son out of class, where he waits reeding if he was lucky enough to grab his book.

I just recently retired from more than 30 years teaching in secondary schools in London. There is a lot of shouting in secondary school. Not all of it at children, but teachers shout for attention in assembly , in the playgrounds, on the sports fields in the swimming pool.
In class or in the line up for lunch or in line up for lessons in corridors teachers and even TAs sometimes shout warnings at children to prevent dangerous situations.
Sometimes teachers express themselves very loudly. However the scariest teachers tend to speak softly. I used to demonstrate this technique for new teachers on unsuspecting but not innocent year 9s. The kids always confirmed how frightening it was to be whispered at.
My point is this, support your son by all means but don't tell him shouting is awful because there is a lot more in his future. And shouting doesnt necessarily indicate malice.
Teaching is an even less attractive job now than when I started so your son will be lucky if he doesnt have many teachers he doesnt get along with.

@Icedvanillacoffee Oh, his inference about these shouting cases seems accurate. They always involve threatening particular children (named), in addition to remarks like "you're the worst class ever".
I'm fully aware and recognize how tough teachers' work is. However, these are our kids who shouldn't experience abusive relationships in school (although I'm far from certain that this is the case). I know that it might sound way too idealistic. Still, I believe it's harmful to a developing mind, and we have options to prevent it today.

If your DS is intelligent and mature, could you discuss with him that he only has two terms left in this school? It might be a circumspect course of action to rein in his argumentative tendency for the duration to avoid repeatedly getting into conflict with this teacher. If he is being repeatedly removed from the classroom, he needs to stop doing that behaviour. You can recognise that his questions are logical and intelligent, but also that they are not necessary or appropriate at that point in time.

@SilenceInside of course, what you wrote is very close to our family discussions. However, it's irrelevant to my question.

Apologies for wasting your time @Drazzzamba

Yes, I would ask to speak to the class teacher first, to clarify what she thinks any issues are and what steps she would like you and your DS to take. Then, if you are not happy with the content of what she says, speak to the head teacher.

Others have offered advice on how to speak to the class teacher without it seeming like an attack. If you approach it from a collaborative, what can we all do to improve the situation manner then it's unlikely that the teacher will be unnecessarily defensive.

Please do ignore my post if it is irrelevant or unhelpful.

In the UK you were assigned a faith school? With out putting it as any of your choices?
Schools cannot automatically enrol your child into a faith school without application.

of course non religious kids can join a faith school if they choose but they shouldn’t then rock the boat and tell everyone why they are wrong, its very strange your child’s teacher had openly said she’s not religious. I have no idea what religion my kids teachers are.

@SilenceInside it's actually very helpful, thank you. I completely agree that escalating or questioning the teacher's approach won't help at this point. I want to make it tolerable enough so my son isn't so upset and doesn't cry after school so often. It's not only heartbreaking, but it also doesn't make much sense because he learns nothing other than how to hate his school. His sensitivity, boredom, and lack of experience certainly don't help.

Many years ago, my class fell behind others because I was asking too many questions. Sensible, intelligent questions beyond the curriculum, but disruptive to the learning of others.

My teacher set up an agreement with me - I reduced my questions in class, writing down any I wanted answers to, and in return we had a timetabled 1:1 session each week (iirc it was at the end of a normal lesson that fell before lunch) in which she would answer the questions I had written down.

It worked really well. Perhaps a member of staff - it could be the RE lead, or another person of faith within the school, if the class teacher themselves is not a Catholic - could eg be his ‘questions person’ once a week if you set it up with the teacher as part of a collaborative discussion? I’ve been a pupil’s ‘science questions person’ for a similar reason.

Ah.

i once taught a kid who had moved internationally a few times and then spent a couple of years being home educated.

he was a lovely kid and I genuinely really liked him but he had basically never learnt that in a school with one adult and thirty children in the classroom he needed to go along with the rules and routines of the classroom and we couldn’t spend the whole lesson talking about what he wanted to talk about.

schools are institutions and like all institutions there are rules in place to make them work. DC who haven’t been there from the start and/or have experienced a lot of adult attention are not always happy shutting up and getting on with stuff.

if he’s trying to engage the teacher in debates about religious morality while she’s trying to teach maths, then yes even though he has good intentions and is clever and keen etc it is still very disruptive behaviour.

he needs either to learn to stop it (grammars and independents roll not like it either) or you need to homeschool him.

This is not relevant to the reported teacher behaviour.
If the school is in receipt of state funding, it should follow state norms in teacher behaviour.

If have one conversation with the head, and then seek to move.

What your son is reporting is serious, best to get away if you can.

Re-reading your posts:
a) yes, ask for the meeting with the teacher now. Why would a request for a collaborative, problem-solving meeting affect a reference ? Equally if there is a genuine problem with your child’s behaviour (see b) then he can demonstrate improvement straight away and avoid any negative impact on references.

b) It is possible that it is the timing, not the nature, of your child’s questioning that is a genuine behavioural concern. In the same way that running around and hitting things with a stick is absolutely exemplary behaviour in a hockey lesson but not in mid spelling test, seeking a religious / moral debate in the middle of a Science or Maths lesson is sufficiently inappropriate to count as poor and disruptive behaviour. It is perfectly within a teacher’s rights to apply reasonable school disciplinary procedures to a child repeatedly raising ‘questions’ that they know are not relevant and are designed purely to provoke debate / response. Working with the school to make sure that your child knows when and how to debate on specific subjects will avoid the issue.

Apologies if your child is only questioning / debating in appropriate lessons and on subjects relevant to the learning in the lesson - it wasn’t clear from your posts.

Chat to the teacher, but if your DC is eye rolling and acting in a superior thinking way you need to address that. I would approach teacher in a fact finding way

So different from the 70s "Mum Mr F threw chalk at me in Music". Mum "Why weren't you paying attention then?"

You know you don't always get a choice, you just get a place in the nearest school with a space? Faith or not is irrelevant.

OK, if he is having to be removed from the class then it does sound like his behaviour is causing significant disruption. That is definitely something you need to work with the teacher on.

OP, this is really tricky and I think the solution is change on both parts. Nobody should be shouting at children in class now. However, he will need to respect being in a Catholic school. Could he save his religious debate for home? He might not be 'reading the room' especially well.

His teacher shouldn't be shouting or threatening-I'd have a polite meeting with the head on this topic, expressing my surprise that this is what I am hearing from him, and asking for her view on the reality of the classroom culture - but equally your DS will need to adjust his behaviour. If the teacher is removing him from the classroom, he needs to stop doing whatever he did. This will be a very useful skill for life. I think the teacher could definitely handle this better, and possibly will after your chat with the head, or not but equally this is a life lesson for your son. I might be asking other parents for their impression too.

I work in a Catholic school, we have lots of children of other and no faiths, and I am not Catholic myself, but having agreed to work in that environment makes certain conversations off limits, for staff and children. I may not share the beliefs of some of my colleagues but I am incredibly respectful of their right to hold them and their suggestion the children should agree. That's the way Catholic school works. The existence of God is not up for debate.

Sorry you have faced this in Year 6 when he should be having the best year ever and making the most of his last hurrah at primary. I had a horrible teacher for Year 6 having moved from private school who was the most negative, unfair person I had encountered and I was used to teachers being nice, to me at any rate. I did have to change my habits somewhat (putting my hand up all the time because I knew the answer was not encouraged) and when I, quite surprisingly, became a teacher myself I made sure I was nothing like her.