What ratio of adults:children would you be comfortable with for a reception school trip?

[KLRJ]

Going to preface this by saying this will be my eldests first ever school trip, therefore also the first time for me sending one of my children on a trip, so please be kind.

What ratio of adults to children would you be comfortable with when sending your 4/5 year old child on a school trip to a children's science museum, 45 minutes away by coach in a middle of a city location?

Friends with children at other local schools have advised me their school trips have allowed parents as volunteers to allow the ratio to be 1 adult to 3 or 4 children. My child's school has refused volunteers (a few of us have asked) and I've just asked my child's teacher what the ratio will be for their trip and they've said 1 adult to 6 children (which she was keen to highlight is the legal requirement).

My child is under assessment for autism/adhd and can be quite a flight risk when out and about with me (and certainly would be a huge flight risk at a children's museum with a multitude of distractions). She masks exceptionally well at school, so despite me highlighting her struggles, she very often gets overlooked and so the idea of her being on a trip with a ratio of 1:6 doesn't sit well with me.

I'm not an overly anxious person, but this will be my first time sending my first baby off on a school trip, so I'm just looking for some opinions from other parents with children the same age to see if I'm being unreasonable in worrying about this or not.

OP, you've said a couple of times that 'fear of authority' is what stops your child from misbehaving at school.

it might help if you reframe this thinking. Your child is learning to behave at school. This is a good thing. You want to encourage this, and support the teachers to help embed positive behaviours. 'Masking' (behaving) is not unnatural, or bad. It's the same socialization we all go through. Imagine how great you'll feel after the trip when your baby has had a great time and behaved beautifully. This is more important for you than her.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here, I did think there was always an element of all reception age children being a flight risk which is why I thought 1:6 wasn't enough, but I think the responses here have shown me I'm possibly dealing with more out of the ordinary behaviour for her age than I originally thought. Will definitely make sure the school know my concerns, thank you so much for your reply

Thank you so much, this is a really good idea and I will definitely be doing this!

As another example look at childminder ratios - childminders can look after a maximum of 6 children under the age of 8, of whom no more than 3 can be in the EYFS age group (up to reception) and of whom 1 can be a baby. So a childminder can theoretically look after a newborn, two 18 month olds and three six year olds. Or a walking 11 month old, a 2yo, 3yo, and three six year olds. Which most parents would tear their hair out at the very idea of - but good childminders who look after multiple children put routines in place, and you see them out and about with the younger children compliantly holding onto buggy handles, or older kids helping younger ones follow routines of handwashing before lunch and so on when they'd probably be tearing around and bouncing off walls when 1-2-1 with a parent at home. Children do behave very differently with different adults, when there are rules and expectations and peer pressure of others following along in a neat crocodile down the road.

If this was relevant to the topic of conversation, which is reception school trip ratios, I would have mentioned it. If there wasn't sufficient evidence, we wouldn't have made it as far down the ND assessment pathway as we have

The school will have risk assessed the hell out of this and actually it’s amazing and a good thing if they can hit ratios without needing parent helpers.
IME the teachers will set the groups incredibly carefully. I’ve helped as a parent a few times abs especially with reception, all you do is repeatedly count to six to make sure you have your group.
The visit will likely be very structured too, it won’t just be wandering freely.
It still amazes me how the teachers get 4.5 year olds to behave when they do anything but at home!
Please do raise your concerns on email so it’s in writing, and if you still don’t trust them, she doesn’t go, but I hope you can take confidence from the replies here.

Thank you so much for your response, its nice to hear an opinion from someone who has dealt with the same thing! It's so hard to weigh it all up knowing she can mask very well, but also never knowing if or when the mask is going to slip!

@KLRJ was wondering whether it would have impact on school trip. The distraction and running off can apply to many 4/5 year olds and school probably wouldn’t see it as much different to many of the other pupils in the class

Thank you for your reply, this was more the sort of ratio I was expecting my daughters school would have too

This was all incredibly helpful, thank you so much for taking the time to reply with such an in depth response 😊

It's so hard to know what to do for the best isn't it, I feel like if I say no to her going then I'll spend the day feeling awful for her missing out but if I let her go and something goes wrong then I'd never forgive myself!

Thanks for the info but I'm not entirely sure why you felt the need to respond to a post questioning reception school trip ratios with unsolicited statistics about ND diagnoses? I spent the first 4 years old her life gaslighting myself into believing she was NT and I was just bad at parenting. If I wasn't certain she would get a diagnosis (and also benefit from a diagnosis) I wouldn't be putting myself through the stress of persuing one for her

This is such a good idea, thank you so much! I will get some air tags on order 😊

I would definitely not rely on air tags! I used them in suitcases on holiday and they don’t always update as quickly as you think!
when we boarded the plane and were taxiing to the runway my suitcases showed as still on the original plane (domestic transfer) and didn’t update until I’d landed at destination and was waiting for them at the conveyor belt! Just caused unnecessary stress tbh

@KLRJ

Sorry if someone's already said this, or you already know, but the main sections for EYFS/Yr1 trips to the science museum are "the garden" (enclosed play space with a person on the door) and "the pattern pod" (mainly enclosed with one entrance and one exit so fairly easy to guard).

The picnic area in the basement is a bit more tricky as there's a bit where kids can sneak around the back (NB they couldn't actually get out of the museum but they could sneak away from their designated area). Obviously the main exhibition halls are busy and chaotic.

If I was in your position I would be asking the school:

• will the children's areas areas be booked for exclusive use of the school (I expect they will be)
• what are the provisions for supervision during lunch?
• will there be exploration through the main sections of the museum and how will.this be managed?

Thank you so much for this response, I can't tell you how much it's set my mind at ease! I'm sorry you went through all of that with burnout, that must have been horrible to experience for both you and your child. I've got my daughter well on the pathway for a diagnosis and have made the masking clear to her school. We have to do the needs led pathway for an assessment where I'm based, so while it's felt as though the school and senco have at times dismissed my concerns about her masking, they have supported the referral and she's had the first screening assessment from a paediatrian so far. It's such a long process though and I can already sense she's a child who will be at risk for burnout. Thank you again so much for your reply and understanding

Thank you for your reply, I do totally understand where you're coming from, but I've framed it that way because I know that fear of authority is what triggered my own masking at school, and I still have significant troubles with my fear of authority even now at 33 (and diagnosed ADHD). I absolutely want my daughter to learn how to behave in public, but I don't want her to learn she has to behave in a way that's going to be detrimental to her mental health

This is a much deeper topic of conversation, and one I have spent a significant amount of time toying with to ensure I find the right balance when it comes to ensuring she can eventually function appropriately in public as an adult, but also ensuring she doesn't cause harm to herself in doing so. However, this is not an easy thing to do when you have a newly 5 year old who suffers from such extreme restraint collapse after school that she can't make it out from under her weighted blanked for two hours after the school day has ended! Masking to that extent isn't normal and absolutely is bad and unnatural. It breaks my heart to see her struggle that way

Asking me who has suggested that she have an autism/ADHD assessment if she's not showing these behaviours at school absolutely isn't just 'wondering whether it would have an impact on the school trip'. I hope you meant it to help, but it comes across as you questioning the judgement of myself and the people who have assessed her so far.

She shows enough of the symptoms of being ND to have made it through three needs led assessments with her preschool and school and to be deemed to still require additional help, and then to have made it through the first screening assessment with a paediatrian earlier this year. Thankfully, none of these other issues will be a danger to her safety on the school trip, and since they are her private medical information, I have not and will not mention them on this post

Oh gosh, maybe I won't use them then! 🙈

As a reception teacher, we do do a lot of risk assessments and watch the children like hawks.

However, I'm surprised the school don't seem to take your worries serious and as a parent this would make me feel nervous too. As a teacher I'd like to know if a child is a flight risk and would talk to the parent about how we will handle this. I think, like in many schools, the lack of communication is actually the most worrying and annoying thing about this whole situation.

I used to teach early years/Ks1 in London, and did trips similar to this with children on the tube! If the adults are all teachers/TAs from the school, your DD will be safer, as the staff will know the children very well, be used to shepherding large amounts of infants around busy places, etc.

I've led trips with and without parents. The ones without parents often feel a lot safer- over the years I've dealt with parents wanting to chat to me constantly (so distracting my attention from watching the children), surreptitiously handing out snacks with allergens in when my head was turned, only paying attention to their own child...of course, I've been lucky to have excellent parent helpers as well. But early years teams often have the same adults year after year and function like a well-oiled machine, they'll have done loads of trips like this and may well have done them together, so everyone will know exactly what to do to keep small children safe in a museum/zoo/wherever.

We wouldn't have counted children with 1:1 needs in the ratio. So, say for example, Jim usually has 1:1 TA in class, his 1:1 will attend just for him, and the rest of the kids will have 1:6 supervision, instead of expecting his 1:1 to also look after five other children.

Also, a trip with such young children won't necessarily be what you're imagining. I would never have allowed children off to wander around a museum in groups at this age- we would have all walked around together under my direct supervision, but with each adult keeping a particular eye on "their" six for extra safety. And I'd be head counting relentlessly throughout, every time we changed areas, went to the toilet, finished lunch, etc...I'd also have every kid in high vis so that anyone wandering off was extremely visible.

I'd definitely mention to the teacher that you believe your DD might behave differently outside school, maybe giving some concrete examples so that they understand the circumstances in which she has run in the past. Knowing this information will help the school keep her safe. In my experience, kids see school trips as an extension of school (same adults, similar rules), so behaviour is usually similar on trips to in school. Still, I'd always take anything like this shared by a parent very seriously and put in place a plan to mitigate any risk, just in case.

The teacher will be used to parents being (quite understandably) worried about school trips in reception as for many kids, they're going out and about without their parents with them for the first time. I'd explain that you're worried and ask them to reassure you about what measures they take to keep the children safe. I'd be perfectly happy to talk it through with you to put your mind at ease if your DD was in my class. And it might be helpful for the teacher to update you at the end of the trip- with any luck, it will all go absolutely fine, your DD will have a lovely (and safe) time, and you'll feel a bit more comfortable next time.

@KLRJ aplogies. I was trying to work out how much school knew, as from your earlier responses it felt that they hadn't been involved in your assessment journey. From your later response they have been. So is your DD on the SEN register, does she have individual learning plan, risk assessment? Don't need to know the details but if she does then I would be expecting flight risk should be noted somewhere, even though she hasn't tried to do a runner etc from school. This information should then be transferred onto the school trip risk assessment and any reasonable adjustments needed (if any). I would be expecting you DD to be placed with senior member of staff or at least ones that knows your DD well.

Maybe the class teacher was pushed for time when you raised your initial concern about ratios, but I would have expected them to address you separately on this matter to allay your concerns. So I would follow it up.

The fact they are travelling by coach makes it easier to have a 1:6 ratio, but is probably also the reason for no parent helpers (not enough seats on a coach). If you are particularly concerned, perhaps you could drive to the museum and help onsite only?

Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought your concerns were based around the fact that your DD might be ND so I guess my point was that I see this as a red herring as there are likely a number of ND children who have been assessed as NT, and vice versa.

Teachers know that some children are a flight risk, whether they are NT or ND and a ratio of 1:6 is what your school has deemed appropriate. Rather than trying to change the school’s risk appetite for all the children in their care to match your risk appetite for your specific child (which IMO is neither fair nor practicable if all parents did this) you have options you can take (ie the AirTag/plaster ideas, or keeping her off the trip) to keep her safe.

To your original question about whether 1:6 is a normal ratio for school trips in Reception I would say absolutely normal in my experience. Doesn’t mean you have to be happy about it but it’s not unusual.