What ratio of adults:children would you be comfortable with for a reception school trip?

[KLRJ]

Going to preface this by saying this will be my eldests first ever school trip, therefore also the first time for me sending one of my children on a trip, so please be kind.

What ratio of adults to children would you be comfortable with when sending your 4/5 year old child on a school trip to a children's science museum, 45 minutes away by coach in a middle of a city location?

Friends with children at other local schools have advised me their school trips have allowed parents as volunteers to allow the ratio to be 1 adult to 3 or 4 children. My child's school has refused volunteers (a few of us have asked) and I've just asked my child's teacher what the ratio will be for their trip and they've said 1 adult to 6 children (which she was keen to highlight is the legal requirement).

My child is under assessment for autism/adhd and can be quite a flight risk when out and about with me (and certainly would be a huge flight risk at a children's museum with a multitude of distractions). She masks exceptionally well at school, so despite me highlighting her struggles, she very often gets overlooked and so the idea of her being on a trip with a ratio of 1:6 doesn't sit well with me.

I'm not an overly anxious person, but this will be my first time sending my first baby off on a school trip, so I'm just looking for some opinions from other parents with children the same age to see if I'm being unreasonable in worrying about this or not.

@imbolic I would always sit as far away as I could from the staff member with the sick bucket!

I’ve been on hundreds of school trips. Children ranging from super clingy/ very compliant to high needs and big flight risk. We very very rarely take a 1:1, but sometimes an addition member of staff. Children would still be in groups of 6 but there would be additional adults just in case. Being on a trip is exhausting as you spend the whole time looking at kids/ scanning the room and counting to 6. Please don’t worry! Schools always risk assess, they generally walk in bigger groups but with kids ‘assigned’ to an adult.

I think that this is less about what other parents/schools are comfortable with, and more specific to your child. You aren't comfortable with this ratio for specific reasons which you need to highlight to them. Ultimately if they disagree that she needs more supervision and you are not comfortable with that, you will need to decide if you want her to go on the trip.

Essentially it sounds like they aren't recognizing the same level of needs overall and that mismatch could keep creating issues. So if there is some way to work on that, I would focus efforts there once the trip is over.

The flight risk is significantly reduced by everything being so unfamiliar. Children will tend to stick closely to their designated adult. I would ask the school to make sure she she is with a familiar adult. And just in case put a piece of paper in her pocket or a plaster on her arm with your and the school phone number. But i would do that anyway.

@KLRJ apart from flight risk what are the other issues that are promoting autism/ADHD assessment? Who has suggested this if not showing in her behaviour at school?

The other thing to remember is that, unless a child has serious problems, they will have a real sense of self-preservation while embarking on something new - they too will be worried about getting lost, getting adrift from the group.

I think even with a personal risk assessment if you don’t feel comfortable then consider keeping her home. I have a flight risk child who will initially mask in a new environment before he just can’t do that anymore. Ive had two childcare settings and a school have him escape after they dismissed me when I say he’s a flight risk and he has a history. With a masking child they are fine until they cannot mask anymore and depending on her triggers the museum trip may be the place the mask slips? That’s what happens with my son, it’s extra busy loud environments where he can’t keep it together anymore and will try escape the noise and then physically kick off if they stop him escaping. If you know that will be an extra challenging environment for your child than a typical school day consider this.

for my dd who is also autistic but not a flight risks I don’t think I e ever even thought to ask about the ratios. She could be one adult to 10 children and I’d trust she will be fine because she’s so well behaved and sensible. Always has been due to her flight risk brother. Reception age and younger she would know to stand still if the responsible adult runs off after a different child (her brother) and they will come back for her when they can. I taught her my phone number and who are safe adults before reception age too.

I say trust your gut. You know your child and their triggers. Lots of people have lots of ND experience and think they can handle certain profiles of need. I’ve lots of experience working with ND kids some who were flight risks then I had my son and fucking hell there is a spectrum of flight risks that’s for sure

Natural to feel worried but also don't let worries rule your life see what can be done to address them as the unknown makes it worse.

So I would ask to know more detail about how the trip runs and you can ask to see the risk assessment.
Personally I would do it via email and copy on the SENCo you could frame it in your child's possible ND and whilst you know they haven't seen it on school yet you are concerned about her running off as she has done that in the past with you and obviously school wouldn't have seen that because no trip out before.

I have been a parent volunteer but was already volunteering in school and had a DBS even then I was paired with a member of staff and I know school seems to be moving away from parent volunteers in general for many of the reasons mentioned earlier.

I volunteered many times (I’m dbs and first aid trained due to my job so they usually asked) and 5-6 per adult was the norm. My dc has asd so would be allocated as “2” people in their ratio calculations meaning I’d have 3 or 4 plus her, she wasn’t really a flight risk more just grumpy if it was noisy. If I wasn’t available they would put her with the class teacher who knew how to handle her

I don't have time to read all the replies so apologies if I'm repeating things but, as a Reception teacher, I just wanted to add my thoughts.

1-6 is a very normal trip ratio for this age group in my experience. I've been on trips with schools who take parent helpers, and schools who also not. In my experience, taking parents with you makes for a far more stressful experience all round. They might make for smaller ratios, but parents are not members of staff and therefore it usually becomes a 2-8 ratio, with a parent helper tagging along with a staff member with both of their groups going around together. Children can behave very differently when their parents are around, and not always for the better. Silliness and clingy children are not what you want on a school trip. The teachers are ultimately in charge, but it is much more awkward to discipline a child in front of their parent. I've seen parents let their own child behave in a dangerous way and not say a word. Then when you step in, they look at you as if you're being totally unreasonable when all you are trying to do is keep a group of children safe (including their own!). Toileting is a bigger safeguarding risk with parent helpers, who are usually keen to help but really shouldn't (and in some cases ignore you and try to get involved anyway). Some parents clearly just want a jolly with their child and completely ignore the other children. Basically, it's exhausting dealing with parents on top of a class of children. It's really more of a hindrance than a help sometimes. Don't get me wrong, some parent helpers are amazing but, I'm my experience, for every parent who is helpful there is another who makes it more stressful. It's becoming less common for schools to take parent helpers on trips these days, and I totally understand why.

The children will be well briefed on safety before the trip and frequently reminded during it. They won't be let out of their group leader's sight. School staff are well use to organising and manning trips. In all honesty, it's really no different having a group of 6 to a group of 4.

The school will write individual risk assessments for any child who needs one, so you need to make them well aware of your daughter's tendancy to run off. It might not be an issue at all with her school peers, in an unfamiliar place, but they need to be made aware. We ensure any children identified as a potential flight risk hold hands with their named group leader. It doesn't sound to me like she needs 1-1 support, just an individual risk assessment. In that case, 1-6 or 1-4 would make no difference so the ratio really isn't an issue here.

Please do speak to the teacher. Your concerns are valid but hopefully they'll be able to reassure you. This might be your first experience of a school trip, but they'll no doubt have years of experience. You either have to trust them, or you as her parent decide to pull her from the trip. That's your call, but the school are doing nothing wrong with the ratio the currently have in place.

We do 1:4 for reception, y1 is 1:5, y2: 1:6 and y3 upwards is 1:10. I have very occasionally done a trip without the required ratio but it’s been a case of on the bus to an activity with dbs checked staff and they are with the class until it’s time to go back on the bus. Usually it’s only a half day trip in that senario.

im always on the hunt for parent helpers for our trips, it’s only the odd trip I don’t get helpers and that’s usually when I would go under ratio for the y6 class. Wouldn’t with anyone else but defo would with them.

So I have a very similar situation however my sons age 5/6. They are going on the
tube with 2 changes (middle of London). Am I anxious absolutely! Can anyone
make me less anxious no! My child's
safety is my priority and 1:6 ratio for me on TFL is not a comfortable ratio as a londoner personally. I am in 2 minds the same as you whether to let him go 😫

Our school do 1:5. The class teachers tend to have the children with higher needs in their groups, plus a couple of ‘easy’ children.

@MummyLifeandAdvice slightly different on the Tube than on a private coach

In ks1 we would often have 1-10 with additional 1-1s for those with specific needs. Museums etc often only offer enough free adult places for that amount of accompanying adults so we would have to ask extras to pay as we are not allowed to ask each child to contribute more than the exact cost of their own place. We also have to bear in mind the huge cost of coaches these days. We have 90 in a year group so we book two coaches which are generally 52 seats each. So we can take 9 adults plus 2 or 3 1-1s. Sometimes, if the venue space allows, other helpers make their own way there by car.

@KLRJ it’s worth noting that 30% of children assessed for Autism are concluded to be NT (some assessors average only 18% of ND diagnoses, some 100%) so it’s a bit of a dark art, and what you perceive as autism may just be her personality traits, or as a result of having 2 younger siblings. It doesn’t mean the challenges you’re facing aren’t real, simply that parenting is hard if you do it right!

As a PP mentioned all Reception children are a flight risk. If you truly think she is at risk then you’ll have to put her safety first and hold her back from the trip. I don’t see how teachers can be expected to provide additional support to a child who shows no signs of needing it.

FWIW I offered my DD(7) the option of walking on the inside of me/the pram or going back in reins when she went through a brief patch of inattentive pavement walking at around the same age as your DD. It wasn’t a punishment, she understood I was worried about her safety and I needed her to work with me to find a solution. She is now in Y2 and an awesome problem solver!!

I would put an air tag on her and give her a sunflower lanyard with school details including phone numbers and yours and her other parents details. If she gets lost in a museum staff or other parents will use these to help her find the teachers.

@KLRJ I work in museum education. Please be reassured that teachers are incredibly on the ball during trips counting and recounting. Museum staff also will be in most gallery spaces and keep an eye out too. We have procedures in place to lock down if a missing child is reported. Children can act very differently in a museum as they aren't their usual spaces, they're normally in awe and slightly anxious and excited. This generally, especially with younger children, translates to sticking close to their group and adult.
I'm also a mum of two and have been on many trips. My experience is that my high masking ASD child kept masking throughout all their trips and was keen to stay with their adult. As a parent to a high masking child please report how your child behaves at home to your GP and school and start on the journey to get them recognised as SEN. I was too late for one of my children and their schooling suffered because no-one believed me until they burnt out.

I helped on lots of trips and generally had a group of 6 (which I must have counted every 5 minutes!) With a class of 30, that's 5 helpers which tends to require parent helpers, especially if it's a full year trip across several classes. Any children with additional needs would be placed with a qualified member of staff. It always worked well - as someone said, children are usually so well behaved on trips albeit with some sprinkles of over excited exuberance!
Each helper is responsible for their headcount through the day so counting as they board the bus should not be a concern.

We'd use parents so most parents would have 1 or 2 children at that age (1s would be parents like yourself who need 121) and then there's a reception class teacher and several TA'S who might have 4 each. So a class of 30 kids would likely have maybe an overall ratio of 1:3

1:6 is fine but with a child who is a flight risk it’s usually 1:1. I would speak to the school if they are unaware that your child may run.

Trip to a London museum in reception, we had a ratio of 3:1. Children got the train which I was very worried about.

The teachers know the children, including which will need a closer eye. We have taken preschool children out on trips who are potentially flight risk and we have never had a problem when they are out with us in a group. They do behave differently away from parents.

I would talk to the school, explain your concerns and ask them what their risk assessment for the trip is for pupils who might need extra support. 1:6 isn’t unrealistic if the majority of the group have typical behaviour for their ages.

Thank you so much, this is really reassuring 😊

Yes, it definitely isn’t safer having parents. The last trip I did I had a parent in my group as an ‘extra hand’ and it was like having another giddy child to watch. And she couldn’t do anything like first aid or take them to the toilet. Also, she kept taking photos of the dc to send to parents who ‘didn’t get to come’ so I had that to deal with. When itbwas time to go on the canoes she started shrieking and clutching the children so then two f them wouldn’t do it.