Why are teachers failing the narrative for boys, is boy playing incompatible with school

[Leteer]

Does anyone feel like boy play is deeply unsupported and thoroughly discouraged in school up to the point where boys are questioning if play is actually good / encourages boys to question if their hard wired need for play is a bad thing. Isn't this a downward spiral for boys to not support what nature gave them which could in turn affect academic work.

Many children just want to sit and chat or eat or read. They don't need space or even to be outdoors to do that.

I think football is the main cause of aggression in playgrounds. And boys dominate the football pitches so girls (who also like playing football) need adult help to access the pitches/football area. Other games like tag cause a lot less trouble.

See , both me and PP are willing to accept that the exact situation you described is possible (despite not being something we experienced). However , you absolutely refuse to believe that Pryia was pushed out/couldn’t play because she was a girl. Not just that , but insinuating it must’ve been because she was actually crap, sorry , affecting the quality of play. Why is that?

I'm a chap and went to school in the 80's, an all boys school, play was always rumbustuous to say the least. On the mild side lunchtime footie or rugger with blazers for goalposts, climbing the trees round the site or shinning up the drainpipes.

Failing that we'd have a good old punch up to resolve some petty grievance - I can well remember having seven shades knocked out of me on the school green whilst the duty teachers looked on, no doubt wagering who would win.

I was generally the one to get a pasting, the one time I did lash out I missed and gave my best mate a big old shiner - he's still got the picture which gets brought out now and again.

Then there was the devious school boy-ness, connecting the physics lab door knob to the mains, tampering with the fire alarm system so it went off in double maths, testing the fire extinguishers by having a water fight, putting sliced banana in all the French textbooks, and dropping crab sticks down the back of the radiator in the heads office whilst getting a bolllocking for something else.

We are a boring bunch of increasingly old farts now, mostly professionals, Drs, Lawyers, Engineers and generally pacifists.

Because you didn’t witness Priya not being allowed to play for being a girl it doesn’t exist? And all girls who were excluded MUST be like Emily who can’t play seriously and are being disruptive to those who want to play?

I am stating very clearly that this does happen and @EwwPeople(hope I’m tagging the right poster) who also works in schools has said they witnessed this too.

I have worked short term and long term in multiple school across the years. As well as worked in after school and youth clubs.

That you think we are all lying and this scenario of Priya not being excluded by sexist boys doesn’t exist is particularly bizarre considering we do live in a sexist society.

So again it’s not a stretch to think we are going to see some of this sexism play out in the playground. In fact why wouldn’t we see this sexism in schools? It would be more surprising if it didn’t happen considering the society we live in. I mean year 6 Jamal and Mikey have heard their dad ridiculing the women’s football over the weekend. Not all boys but some will definitely take on some of these views and it will manifest in the playground/in PE etc.

I did not deny that Emily didn’t exist or your example didn’t happen, all I am saying is the scenarios that me and others have seen had happened also and yet you continue to deny that.

This exactly!!

Maybe they also enjoy the sunshine, the warm weather, the feeling of the grass, the wildflowers , the fresh air? Keep them all inside because they’re not sporty/active enough? Fuck me.

And they do need fresh air at least, even if they don’t want any of the things in my first paragraph.

Because that is what I have.most often seen and other adults who frankly think its dumb to take sports seriously fail to appreciate why someone who is not only unskilled, but refused to listen is a disruption.

I am happy to admit that where a girl migbt be competent enough to play, she can be overlooked because this phenomenon of letting girls disrupt recreational sports games exists. So they assume Priya will be like Emily because the adults let Emily mess things up so often.

GlovedhandsCecilia

Surely all kids are better moving around and getting fresh air in some way though? I’d see every kid laughing and chatting including the ones who would normally by the parents admission only be happy on their own with a book or advice. Their parents would say they were talking about the fun they had afterwards. I was a bookish kid and very very much loved my own company, and hated team sports and games but some of my best primary memories are still ones with activities and outdoor experiences where I clicked with other people that particular day

If space is limited and most of the time is spent sat down anyway, the people who want to make the most use of the space should be prioritised. If you just want to be sedentary anyway, you shouldn't get in the way of people who do not. Go and sit near an open window..

@Leteer - why are you asking this? What has triggered this Q for you, has there been a recent issue ? I’m just interested that you come at this with a specific position, use the term ‘boy play’ yourself in your OP, but then had to use an AI LLM to explain the phrase. Which you had used.

Crack down on Emilys' and the boys might be more trusting that Priyas' exist.

If they see you tell your daughter off for being silly and annoying, then they might trust that you won't make them include someone who just wants to disrupt their game and get attention from them.

Firstly if they assume Priya will be like Emily without even giving Priya a chance they ate being sexist. So there’s that.

And secondly I am talking about situations where the girls have been playing just as seriously and passionately as them but they’ve had an issue right from the second the girls have joined them. And they have got incredibly aggressive and unwelcoming as time has went on leading the girls to take a step back.

In some cases they get even MORE angrier when the girl is playing well,
so no I reject the notion that these poor boys just don’t want their game ruined.

They can give Peter and Priya and everyone else a chance and if someone (be they a boy or girl) is deliberately messing up a game then action should be taken. But that is not what’s happening in every situation.

Priya is not being overlooked BECAUSE of Emily. Sometimes it’s just pure sexism.

After trying to raise a fairly valid point, this comment has completely undermined it.
The reason there isn’t 50/50 split in some fields is due to decades of institutionalised gender roles. These are gradually being broken down, naturally it takes time. But parents with attitudes like this (boy play, boy role, boy job) is a huge part of the problem

@LemonCurdHotCrossBun It often turns out to be empty threats, angry words spoken in frustration, but we need to take it seriously nonetheless. In my current school we have been in mediation twice concerning incidents of 'rough and tumble' gone too far and where parents (both big, burly dads, incidentally) were keen to 'take things further' (while the mum's quietly cringed in the background).

We must always guard against accusations of not safeguarding children against bullying: what is one child's fun 'rough and tumble' is perhaps an unwilling participant's daily dose of being shoved or barged or chased down or put in a headlock or being climbed on or jump-scared -we can't accept that 'boys will be boys' or even 'we'll, that's just child X for you'. This is a big reason why child-on-child physical play is deemed high risk. Children's immature nervous systems are not always able to regulate in time to recognise escalation and emerging risk of harm.

These choices are not all biological. They’re driven by socialisation which begins before a child is even born.
Conflating this is problematic.

also, rough and tumble is as pp have said tricky too because it gets too out of hand too quickly.
I do think better play options would be good though including more adventurous playgrounds but they are expensive and take a strong head to do it

I must have misunderstood your thread. I thought you have a son who is struggling at school and getting into trouble.

If it's research, that's a different thing. Did you mean this thread to be some sort of first round idea gathering for your academic work?

Interesting question. What kind of academic article do you recommend on the topic?

Crack down on boys who are being sexist instead of trying to put the blame on girls. We have said multiple times we’ve not seen the instances of Emily’s disrupting games . But we have seen boys excluded Priya. And you’re still blaming an Emily type girl who may not even exist in that situation .

I’ve even asked the boys why they are being like that to Priya and they’ve not been able to explain themselves in any reasonable way. Especially when their aggressive outbursts has been fuelled by a girl outperforming them on the pitch.

Considering sexism is very much alive and kicking I’m struggling to understand why you can’t believe that SOME young boys are sexist and this can and will manifest in various aspects of their behaviour including on the playground/on the pitch.

You’re part of the problem. It’s ironic you don’t see it, but expected.

They're used to having their games ruined by girls who they were made to involve so now they are jaded. That's what the boys reported when this all became an issue in the PS I worked in and in my son's school.

In my son's school, protecting their game led to them being even more inclusive. It stopped being boys playing football and it became people who like football playing football.

Some adults just want their child to be able to have a go and be included, irrespective of their impact on others. It's about their child getting that experience and not feeling left out and that's all that matters to them. As a sporty person who likes to win and trained hard to get a spot on the teams they were chosen for, it's fucking infuriating.

Our school has radically changed playtimes in the last five years to be much more child led, no more "it's Owl class's turn on the climbing frame", lots of different resources to spark imaginations and different kinds of play, rough play allowed, messy play allowed, etc. There are spaces and resources for quiet play - reading, crafts, knitting and crochet - as well as rambunctious or imaginative play.

It took a lot of work to embed a totally different culture of play including a big investment in training staff and a lot of shifting mindsets particularly around managing rather than eliminating risk and the idea that the staff are there to enhance and enable play rather than mostly to police it.

Kids often come home filthy, sometimes there are tears and the occasional slight injury but no more than with more regimented play - and it's had a big positive impact on behaviour.

The one negative has been that kids are much less inclined to do lunchtime clubs because playtime is much more fun.

The problem is space. If you want to spend break time sat down on a chair, you dont need the space that those who want to do something more physical Will need. You should not be prioritised for space in that instance especially given that time for physical activity in school is very limited.

People just don't like.hearing no or that other people matter more in some instances. Yes the footballers matter more than the readers when it comes to allocating playground space. The readers can read anywhere.

You are just parroting your experience of your son’s school without engaging with the points I’ve made.

Again, they have no right to assume Priya is taking the piss before she’s even had a chance and if they do that is sexist in itself .

And even that would not explain the many situations I’ve seen where they have seen Priya is not an Emily but they will try to exclude her AND get particularly annoyed when she outperforms them.

Who are Priya, Emily, Jessica, Susie and Billy?

And why do they giggle when playing football? Can someone sane explain please?

Priya and Jessica are some names I was using as an example of girls I’ve came across that were excluded unfairly from playing football.

Other posters have used other names to describe the kind of kid they are talking about.