Why are teachers failing the narrative for boys, is boy playing incompatible with school

[Leteer]

Does anyone feel like boy play is deeply unsupported and thoroughly discouraged in school up to the point where boys are questioning if play is actually good / encourages boys to question if their hard wired need for play is a bad thing. Isn't this a downward spiral for boys to not support what nature gave them which could in turn affect academic work.

The poster I was replying to did indeed say that it was reasonable to assume racism in UK healthcare, and even that "As a Black woman, I don't need research to tell me that I am going to get better care from a Black practitioner"
and
"Given the way in which Black and ethnic minority people have been treated, many many many times over, the evidence would suggest we should err on the side of caution and assume racism is involved, rather than not?"

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/primary/5509364-why-are-teachers-failing-the-narrative-for-boys-is-boy-playing-incompatible-with-school?page=22

I think it's terrible to make such assumptions - as a white woman should I expect better care from a white practitioner, and if not, then why is it acceptable to assume racism from white practitioners but not from black ones?

So if you have evidence that it's an issue in UK healthcare, please feel free to provide it. I've not seen any reliable studies. I did give links including a screenshot to one very widely-quoted study about black newborns where it turned out (thanks to FOI) that the lead researcher had chosen to leave out crucial data that changed the "narrative" (his words) from one of more black babies being born at VLBW to simple racism by white medical staff.

I don't think it's acceptable to allow actual lies like that to pass as research results without being challenged.

Except that's only true for first generation immigrants of colour.

First generation white people do not have that issue.

Your artificial attempts to separate race from socioeconomic background ignores the systemic racism that prevents Black and ethnic minorities from escaping poverty.

Black families who have been here for generations still have lower academic achievement. Are more subject to harassment. Are more likely to be victims of a crime. Are more likely to be poor. And are more likely to die in childbirth.

If you're not British it explains why you're banging this drum. In the UK, we are a lot less honest about our racism. We hide it behind class, which in no way makes it better. It's more insidious. It gets into everything.

Both need to be addressed. It's an intersectional issue (throw sexism in there too).

At what point did anyone say that a white woman would get better care from a white practitioner than a Black one?

No-one said anything at all about the treatment white people receive.

That's not true. First generation white (Italian, Polish etc immigrants always had lower average pay until EU membership gave them the same rights and comparable education levels as native born British. But that's a very recent development.

And IME it's far more about class than race - and by making it about race there's a risk of giving unfair privilege to children of docotrs and engineers over white children from a working class background. That makes sense in the US, where blacks (not immigrants) were prevented from studying at the best universities etc. It makes no sense in the UK, where class is the real divider.

And there are many reasons why such assumptions are made about the treatment Black people receive, as I've previously mentioned

(i) historic oppression and exploitation of Black people
(ii) statistics showing significantly lower outcomes for Black people
(iii) the fact that there is zero harm from those assumptions, and the possibility that it will lead to better training and awareness of those working with Black people, with the goal of improving those outcomes.

These things also apply to poor people. Why not help both?

I provided two actual quotes and a link to the page in that post. What more do you want?

Because if a black woman gets worse treatment than a white women from a black doctor, are you really saying that mean white doctors are racist to black women but that there is no equivalent when a white woman gets treated by a nice black doctor?

Do you have any evidence for this?

Lower, yes, but not anything like as low.

Also, so this your concern? That a poor white child will be overlooked in favour of a middle class Black child?

This sounds like fiddling with Rome burns. Neither of these children are the problem.

The rich white children are your problem

Those quotes don't say what you claim they say.

They say to up the standard of care given to Black people. Not lower the standard of care given to white people.

No, I'm saying that as a result of systemic racism, the white doctor isn't even aware they are being racist.

The Black doctor is definitely more aware of racism, because its their lived experince.

Are you again saying systemic racism isn't an issue? I note you didn't answer that in my previous post

I'm saying that if your explanations for a problem are based on unsound evidence, you will never solve the problem.

Black babies were NOT dying from racism in the heamthcare system, they were dying because more black babies were being born at very low birth weights.

Even if that were partly due to racism within society at large, that will not be reduced by fabricating a narrative of racism within the healthcare system.

Honestly, I think you need to work on your internalised racism.

Think about why you're so invested in arguing against it. Accepting it exists doesn't take anything away from you. It raises the bar for everyone

They allege, without proof, that black women are subjected to racism by white doctors within the UK healthcare system.

I explained why. I'm a scientist - I haven't argued that racism doesn't exist, because I know it does. I said a different thing and if you don't understand nuance, I think you shoudl work on that rather than accuse me of racism.

No, and if what you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt you on this), then yes, that is unhelpful and unreliable.

But one bad study doesn't disprove the lived experience of millions of people.

I asked about systemic racism.

Where racism is baked into our institutions and societies, and impacts every aspect of our lives (and which every white person has benefitted from).

You can hardly doubt me - it's all on the thread. Imagine if it hadn't been - you'd have been calling me racist over your own misunderstandings.
Oh wait, you did that anyway.🙄

But Black women are subjected to racism, by everyone, every day of their lives.

Not just by doctors. It's everywhere.

Even if there is no measurable evidence that can point to racism as the cause, Black women will experience more racism at the hand of white people than Black people because that's what racism is.

What exactly am I misunderstanding?

Well you called me racist, so am I supposed to assume that this is yet another example of racism or could it be that you got the wrong end of the stick?

No, I said you might be - in the same way that all white people are.

We benefit from systemic racism.

Edit - scratch that, I did say you were. And I stand by it. In the same way that I am also racist, and all white people are

So are you saying that your fear that a poor white child might be given an advantage over a middle class Black child isn't racism?

You don't believe that a middle class Black child is equally deserving of support as a poor white child?

LOL I have no fears about it at all. I don't even live in England.
You should probably read back to how this discussion began if you're interested.

Personally I'm finding it tedious at this stage being expected to re-explain for someone who's joined in halfway through either without reading back or, perhaps worse, applying their own eagerness to see racism everywhere no matter how often I explain the point I was actually making.

Oh god this is even worse now. You're white and you're identifying an instance of racism based on a discussion you've only half understood?

You can keep your allegations of racism for yourself - you know exactly nothing about my experiences of racism and prejudice of various sorts from having lived abroad for years - I'm well able to identify racism.

So if you want to consider yourself racist, go right ahead. But I'm taking no lessons from you on that. Why do you think you are better able to identify racism than I am?

Oh and also, being from the minority group in Northern Ireland, I'm pretty sure I can honestly say I've never benefited from white privilege. When I was a child, catholics didn't even all have a vote, and were heavily discriminated against in terms of work prospects.

Because I have no other explanation for your posts

Then maybe that comes from a lack in you?